wickham martin rolling headsail system how should i hank the sail on?

trouville

trouville

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For years ive had a jib furling "thing" but never used it.Now i would like to roll my jib away on my folkboat.

I posted ages ago about a system to roll the jib in or have it out nothing in between. And the wickham martin was sugested as was a harkan system! I have a stainless drum for the bottem and can buy a swivel for the top.(harken)

How do i attach the sail to the rolling forstay??That it rolls and unrolls??If i hank it on the hanks wount grip the turning forstay and if fixed top and bottem wouldent just the bottem roll up untill it jamed???

I must be the only person in the whole world thats never has any kind of forsail rolling system not even on my dingy!!!!!

How do the old ones without a foil work?? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
With Wickham Martin furling you need a wire rope, with a hard eye on each end, sewn on the luff of the sail. The WM turns the lower end of the luff and relies on the stiffness of the wire to furl all that is above it. So a reasonable sized wire of a stiff makeup is better than something flexible. WMs are bronze eg http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/prodtype.asp?prodtype=79&ph=cat so if yours is stainless it is something else. Pretty much only good for furling ie. not for reefing. Also tends to furl over tight if there is a fresh breeze. Some say it is not so easy to get a tight luff but I don't see why as you can pull them up just as hard. Thinking about it, maybe its because you are tensioning the luff wire and not the sail itself. Not sure. My cutter has two, though I have wondered about "modern" roller reefing for the stays'l.
 
Re: wickham martin rolling headsail system how should i hank the sail

The bronze one costs a fortune! The one i have is a very solid 6 inch drum stainless one. Cant remember where i got it now?

Its as i thought!

I would put a "modern" one on but theres no point on a Folkboat unless i have a genoa to roll!!

The very very best "modern" roller is the "pro furl" really good quality compact never heard anyone have a problem at all with it!! Its a bit? more costly than most others but the one i havent ruled out buying! And ive looked into roller reafing a lot,

A Canadian in a 14m boat moored next to me in porto azzuro and he had not only roller reafing but another pro furl to roll his main as well!! He told me he had crossed the atlantic with it? The main was loose footed
 
[ QUOTE ]
Some say it is not so easy to get a tight luff but I don't see why as you can pull them up just as hard. Thinking about it, maybe its because you are tensioning the luff wire and not the sail itself.

[/ QUOTE ]
If the sailmaker's done their bit properly the sail should be set up at the right tension on the luff wire so you oughtn't to need to do more than pull the halliard up as normal. Also it's good to have the luff seized to the wire at intervals along it (say quarters) as well as being made fast at top and bottom.
The main thing between WM's and modern roller furling is the one's designed to be taken in when not needed (in port for a while) whist the other one's semi-permanent, so one advantage of the WM is being able to keep your sail out of the sun with its lovely UV damage, but a sail rolled up on a wire in a coil isn't the most easily stowed thing. On the other hand the modern version is more reefable but the sail doesn't come to much good being out in the weather all the time.
 
I have a really useful home-made WM hauled out along the bowsprit to set the jib. I got someone to braze up a drum out of bronze. It bolts onto a simple bracket connecting to the traveller, but the nut is locked so that the eyebolt through the middle can turn in relation to the traveller. It incorporates an eye to guide the coiling line (actually made from the rod from a WC ball cock).
There is a balance to be struck when tightening the halliard - too loose and the sail doesn't set well: too tight and the swivels don't turn easily.
Stowage is easy - wind up the sail, haul it inboard, lower slowly, coiling the wrapped tube down on the foredeck, disconnect the ends, and pop the resulting pizza-sized coil into a bag to stop it unwinding.
When unfurling, keep a bit of tension on the coiling line to stop it flying off the drum.
It works after a fashion when reefed, but not very well.
 
Happy to be corrected, but I thought the wykham Martin system was a furling system rather than a reefing one - i.e. only used to put the sail away, and unsuitable to use to reef the sail.
 
Re: wickham martin rolling headsail system how should i hank the sail

Thats exactly what it is. A folkboat has a jib no point in haveing expensive furling gear!
A folkboat prefers not to have to stowe the jib.

Far better to leave it bent on then when the time comes to clear out in the dark and rain just pull a line and the jibs in place.

If it was nessasary to reef a folkboat jib it would be blowing far to hard for any roller reefing gear!
 
Re: wickham martin rolling headsail system how should i hank the sail

But you have been talking about reefing, and that is not possible.
 
Re: wickham martin rolling headsail system how should i hank the sail

Oh? I just want to leave the sail on the stay. Then i can dive into the clear(cold) water to wash!
I get really fed up with haveing to hank the jib on and off! Particularly when i just have to change bays becouse of the wind.
And my jib dosent just stay on the fordeck,it escapes at midnight just when the rains started.
 
Re: wickham martin rolling headsail system how should i hank the sail

personaly am a great believer in being able to reef genoa and main without having to leave the cockpit, cause that is when SWMBO starts having kittens in bad weather, and its also when the autopilot starts to misbehave (perhaps I should have bought a better model rather than the cheapest). I have considered very seriously adding a second temp forestay in order to be able to deploy an upwind sail or storm sail rather than the reefed big genoa. The big advantage of hanked on sails is the ability to get the sail down onto the deck and still have it more or less under control. Changing my big genoa when it is on a foil is not a job I relish in big wind.
 
Re: wickham martin rolling headsail system how should i hank the sail

I agree with you! Im also looking at useing the old drum i still have as i will only have to buy a harken swivel,it the least expensive system i can find!!

For some reason every year i start with lots of money and plan and do buy things i need/want then come the insurance and government then im condemed to an anchorage for the rest of the year!
 
Stowing a Wykeham Martin headsail.

At anchor overnight - roll it up. If you need to pull out at 0200 in an onshore nasty, no problem.

If leaving the boat for a few days, drop the rolled sail, coil up the "sausage" and stow it below.

NB - you can change W/M headsails very easily - roll up, drop, shove below, shackle on new headsail, hoist, unroll. Helps to use snap shackles on the tack and head, of course. Its much easier to change a rolled W/M jib than a hanked on one.
 
Re: Stowing a Wykeham Martin headsail.

I absolutely agree - keep the rolled sausage intact, and hoist it rolled up.
I know WMs aren't designed for reefing, but they will after a fashion. Roll up the jib halfway and then belay the coiling line.
The sail doesn't set very well, but it's better than nothing. It's quite a useful way of inching up to a mooring against the tide - just progressively reduce the sail area until hardly making way. I'm assuming you've already dropped the main and gaff down with a run onto the boom, guided by double topping lifts and lazyjacks. All done from the cockpit.

It's also a very quick way of increasing, or reducing, turning leverage when manoeuvring in a confined space. You can give it full jib right out on the bowsprit for a few seconds, then reduce it or furl completely just by pulling on the line.
 
Re: Stowing a Wykeham Martin headsail.

I thought i had to intigrate my forstay between the drum on deck and the swivel at the top?
Therefor at first i would hank on my jib fixing it to the drum and swivel.But then if i roll wont the hanks just let the cable slip rolling just the head and foot??

Then i thought to seize the hanks on? but then i cant unhank without cutting the sezings.

Should i fit a "removable forstay" to hank the sail on then attach that to the swivel and drum?

How do i tention the sail?? the drum and swivel being the forstay, and the halyard would twist around the forstay fitting??

All the W/M systems ive seen have been for staysails and independent of the frostay?? The swives not hollow? at least it dosent seem to be but i havent bought it yet!!
 
Re: Stowing a Wykeham Martin headsail.

I see your confusion. I am remembering from when I last sailed my boat, which was some years ago as I am in the middle of a major rebuild.
On a very small boat with a self-supporting mast, the wire inside the jib luff might serve as a forestay, so might not be critical if lowered.
On a cutter, the forestay runs to the stem head, and would be permanent. The jib, with its internal wire, would be run out along the bowsprit, complete with WM.
If you were fitting a second WM on the staysail (A good idea which I have not yet taken up) then, no, you would not try to combine the two. You would simply be hoisting the sail on its own, not hanked to anything, but held stiff at the luff by its own sewn-in wire. Tensioning would simply be by the halliard as normal, but with the proviso I mentioned about not having it so tight that the swivels wouldn't swivel.
There might indeed be a possibility of the sail getting tangled up round the forestay. I think the secret of using a WM is not to simply let ropes fly, but to release the winding cord slowly as the sheets are hauled in. This also helps to stop the cord from flailing around. The reverse applies when furling the sail - you don't want it flapping around while the cord is slack.
With a WM, you are winding the sail round its own built-in luff wire : not to be confused with systems that wind the sail round the forestay. I've no experience of them, but they don't sound very "classic".
 
Re: Stowing a Wykeham Martin headsail.

That would mean on my small FB that the forstay would be in the way!!!And if i hoist the jib useing a rolling forstay with the jib hanked on then the halyard will wrap around the forstay fitting and jam between that and the mast??Umm

I suspect that the jib should be permently on but then the question of tention arises
I cant use the jib infront nor just behind the stay has to be where it is¨

Seems daft to have to pay about £400 for a cheap roller reafing when my jibs so very small.
I did think of a profurl with a large light genoa!! But then i look over the sea wall (today) and there are 20 meter waves and force 80 blowing!!!

Seems like that anyway??May be a bit exagerated??

The FB sails so well with her standard sail plan and its very practical indeed not to mention inexpensive, and in light air i can always fly a spi or very light genoa, But when it rough the standard jib is very comforting!!

Even so i would like to roll it up and roll it out not always have to have it bundeled on deck or below
 
Re: Stowing a Wykeham Martin headsail.

I had the 120 sqft jib on my 12 ton TM Gaff Cutter made with a chain luff. This was 1/4"galvanized steel twisted-link chain (used to be called harness chain) and has to be set up properly by the sailmaker, i.e. pre-twisted in the right direction before being sewn into a luff pocket. This makes the sail quite flexible when on deck but gives it a stiff luff when the halyard is set up tightly. It sets on a real Wykeham-Martin gear and furled beautifully and reefs, but not very efficiently in a real blow. The gear can only be used to roll up one way - against the twist of the chain.
Last year I replaced this chain with a lighter 3/16" twisted-link chain forced tightly into a plastic tube. This works better still.

I have used W.M. gear for almost 50 years in a variety of cruisers and one thing I think is important - keep the luff well clear of the forestay - as much as 6" - to avoid rolling it up in the sail in bad conditions.
 
Re: Stowing a Wykeham Martin headsail.

The 6" clearance is a good point. It needs a bit of careful planning if converting from a hanked-on system.
Of course the luff angle does not necessarily have to follow that of the forestay - it could hoist to a point a bit lower down the mast, although that of course would sacrifice a bit of sail area.
I had forgotten the very valid point about getting the right pre-twist on the chain or wire. If you just sew the wire in un-twisted then when in situ it tends to wind unevenly. You really need to stretch the wire out horizontally, apply some twist at one end, and then stitch in the eyes at the ends and all along the wire too. Or possibly only at intervals.
 
Re: Stowing a Wykeham Martin headsail.

Of course, it is the pre-twist that makes the unhooked sausage easy to stow, because it wants to coil itself up anyway. Like a garden hose that will only coil one way.
 
Re: Stowing a Wykeham Martin headsail.

Sorry, I had a fit of mental abberation when quoting the sizes of chain in my last post. I have now measured them and I should have read 3/16" (NOT 1/4") and 1/8" (NOT 3/16").

When Wykeham-Martin produced the gear themselves they used to make a special chain.

The separation between luff and stay doesn't need to be as much at the head as at the tack. If they are too close, problems usually arise in the bunt of the sail, especially when furling on a run in strong winds, when the stay will get foul.
 
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