Why Junk Riggs are good for CRUISING? WHY NOT?

rael dobkins said:
I agree, self tacking jibs simplify things. Still whether you like their appearance or not is besides the point, The ease of reefing is what junks are all about.
I on the other hand don't like the high loads Bermudas put on the vessel, a Bermuda must be bar tight to work well, the loads are ridiculous on masts, sails, rigging, chain plates and hulls. Junk rigs are very low stress, making them cheaper more reliable and easy to fix anywhere. Last but not least, the costs of Bermuda gear like winches, roller furlings, spinnakers, and heavy weather sails has become outrages.
I made my 9.5 square meter cambered panel sail in a day, with cheap Polytarp and pine battens. A Bermuda sail no way I could make my self, only the sewing machines used to sew thick Dacron costs more than my boat.........
Click to expand...
Can you explain why the total energy transfer is lower for a junk rig compared to a Bermudian? And why no one every won a race in a junk rig if they are so amazing?
 
The key safety requirement of any sailing rig is surely to be able to beat to windward to claw off a lee shore. The inability of square-riggers to do so in earlier times led to many wrecks and was a major reason that the Bay of Biscay was so feared - ships which were embayed were simply unable to get out. Junk rig doesn't beat well, especially in light winds.

A Tesco bag tied to a broom handle will go downwind, and cheaply. The modern analogy to junk rig is to set out with nothing more than a furling cruising chute on board. We simply wouldn't do it.
 
It depends on what you are aiming to achieve.
The junk rig is a bit different, can be easily made at home, cheap to run, beats well enough for most purposes, reaches well, runs excellently, and is easily sailed single handed.

Bermudan is faster, sails are expensive, rigging is expensive and requires periodic replacement, beats brilliantly, runs terribly unless additional sails are hoisted, and they are two-a-penny in every marina and harbour.
 
chriss999 said:
It depends on what you are aiming to achieve.
The junk rig is a bit different, can be easily made at home, cheap to run, beats well enough for most purposes, reaches well, runs excellently, and is easily sailed single handed.

Bermudan is faster, sails are expensive, rigging is expensive and requires periodic replacement, beats brilliantly, runs terribly unless additional sails are hoisted, and they are two-a-penny in every marina and harbour.
Click to expand...

Sounds absolutely spot on, to me!!
 
Buck Turgidson said:
Can you explain why the total energy transfer is lower for a junk rig compared to a Bermudian? And why no one every won a race in a junk rig if they are so amazing?
Click to expand...
Colonel Haslar came 2nd in the 1960 single-handed trans-Atlantic race sailing a junk-rigged 25ft Folkboat.

Second to Francis Chichester in a 40ft bermudan yawl.

Not a bad achievement.
 
Buck Turgidson said:
Can you explain why the total energy transfer is lower for a junk rig compared to a Bermudian? And why no one every won a race in a junk rig if they are so amazing?
Click to expand...

Bermudans are good for windward work, so they win races.

If the head stay isn't bar tight, the head sail looses drive. If the head stay is bar tight, so is the back stay, so are the shrouds, putting great loads on the hull, mast and rigging.

Why are junks low stress? just look at them, the cloth is reinforced with full battens and the sheet goes to all the battens, this design prevents sail twist. Bermuda sails are sheeted in by the clew at the bottom corner. how would you prevent sail twist? You would tighten the sail outward and downward, you would yank on the outhaul, the boom vang. The tension created between Clew, Head and tack are ridiculous! That's why these sails are made of heavy Dacron, that's why a straight stitch will tear and only a Zig Zag works and that's why the threads used to sew such sails are crazy strong!!!

By the way, no other sail in history has ever been as heavily loaded, expensive and complicated as the Bermuda Rig. Since most sailors use their boats for cruising, in many cases it's far from the best choice.
 
And his sail was terrible. Flat as a board and small. Modern junk sails have been developed to be a lot better.
The only advantage in racing that I can see with a junk (unless the course is downwind) is that the junk sail needs less work to reef, hoist and trim it. Hasler used to say that a junk sailor arrived less tired that a bermudan sailor.
A chap in Norway races his junk rig and sometimes wins, I believe. Not me though.
 
Catalina36 said:
The key safety requirement of any sailing rig is surely to be able to beat to windward to claw off a lee shore. The inability of square-riggers to do so in earlier times led to many wrecks and was a major reason that the Bay of Biscay was so feared - ships which were embayed were simply unable to get out. Junk rig doesn't beat well, especially in light winds.

A Tesco bag tied to a broom handle will go downwind, and cheaply. The modern analogy to junk rig is to set out with nothing more than a furling cruising chute on board. We simply wouldn't do it.
Click to expand...

Very correct! A boat that cant sail to windward is not a true sailboat, a day will come and it will pileup on a lee shore.

Still, Junk rigs have come a long way and a cambered Junk will sail 45 to windward easy. Traditional flat sails were poor to windward, the modern cambered ones are a totally different breed.

On a multihull, my cambered sail takes me 50 to windward very nicely. I sailed Bermuda rigged cruising Monos that would be happy to do 50...
 
Obviously it's a matter of personal preference and it's clear from this thread that junk rig has some devout followers. I can only say that in over 50 years sailing Solent waters and further afield and 35 years in a large sailing club, I've yet to see a junk rigged boat except in boating magazines. One might have thought that if they had even a modicum of real support there would be more of them.
 
rael dobkins said:
Bermudans are good for windward work, so they win races.

If the head stay isn't bar tight, the head sail looses drive. If the head stay is bar tight, so is the back stay, so are the shrouds, putting great loads on the hull, mast and rigging.

Why are junks low stress? just look at them, the cloth is reinforced with full battens and the sheet goes to all the battens, this design prevents sail twist. Bermuda sails are sheeted in by the clew at the bottom corner. how would you prevent sail twist? You would tighten the sail outward and downward, you would yank on the outhaul, the boom vang. The tension created between Clew, Head and tack are ridiculous! That's why these sails are made of heavy Dacron, that's why a straight stitch will tear and only a Zig Zag works and that's why the threads used to sew such sails are crazy strong!!!

By the way, no other sail in history has ever been as heavily loaded, expensive and complicated as the Bermuda Rig. Since most sailors use their boats for cruising, in many cases it's far from the best choice.
Click to expand...

or successful.

You can run a Bermudian rig loose if you want to compete with a junk rigged boat.

And just to be clear, I have nothing against junk rigs. They are just massively over hyped by their beloved following despite their limitations. If they were all the things they are proclaimed to be they would be the industry standard by virtue of profit margin. They aren't!
 
rael dobkins said:
Very correct! A boat that cant sail to windward is not a true sailboat, a day will come and it will pileup on a lee shore.

Still, Junk rigs have come a long way and a cambered Junk will sail 45 to windward easy. Traditional flat sails were poor to windward, the modern cambered ones are a totally different breed.

On a multihull, my cambered sail takes me 50 to windward very nicely. I sailed Bermuda rigged cruising Monos that would be happy to do 50...
Click to expand...
on both tacks?
 
Just curious that nobody has mentioned Badger and Pete & Annie Hill.
Oh, in her book, she mentions that their original sails were so clapped out that they had difficulty carrying them off the boat as they were so rotten, but still worked OK. Think they were cotton.
 
Buck Turgidson said:
or successful.

You can run a Bermudian rig loose if you want to compete with a junk rigged boat.

And just to be clear, I have nothing against junk rigs. They are just massively over hyped by their beloved following despite their limitations. If they were all the things they are proclaimed to be they would be the industry standard by virtue of profit margin. They aren't!
Click to expand...

‘industry standard’
‘Profit margin’

I think you’ve missed the point.(y)
 
Buck Turgidson said:
or successful.

You can run a Bermudian rig loose if you want to compete with a junk rigged boat.

And just to be clear, I have nothing against junk rigs. They are just massively over hyped by their beloved following despite their limitations. If they were all the things they are proclaimed to be they would be the industry standard by virtue of profit margin. They aren't!
Click to expand...

What are their limitations?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top