smithy
Well-Known Member
I was thinking of doing my cockpit until I worked out the cost. Are they just pricing it at what the market will bear, or is it lack of competition? Suerly It can't cost that much to make.
Why is synthetic teak so expensive?
- Thread starter smithy
- Start date
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Plenty of competition. Very low volumes, high marketing and promotion costs mean high prices held up by even higher costs of alternatives. Interesting though that Bavaria charge a premium for fake teak over the real stuff.
Not sure anybody is making huge profits out of the stuff as a number of people have entered the market, both making and installing, and left. Very difficult market to service when every job is a one off, rather than mass produced volume runs of identical products (complete panels that is).
Not sure anybody is making huge profits out of the stuff as a number of people have entered the market, both making and installing, and left. Very difficult market to service when every job is a one off, rather than mass produced volume runs of identical products (complete panels that is).
pvb
Well-Known Member
But it lasts for nearly ever, with no maintenance!
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Was disappointed with the appearance on the 33 we looked at on Wednesday. It was raining and the real teak in the cockpit changed colour and the deck in fake did not. Don't think I could live with that and the GRP will last as long as the fake teak! The real teak in the cockpit on my current Bavaria is in excellent condition after 15 years, most of that time in the Med (hot summers, cold wet winters), needing only a bit of local recaulking in the sections where there is a dip and water lies. If I was going for deck overlay it would be the real stuff as that would outlast me, but would rather spend the money on a bow thruster (says he very quietly).
BrianH
Well-Known Member
Not quietly enough - wash your mouth out, Tranona.
Simple solution, don't mix. Seems a silly solution to do so anyway, they could never match up over time. The cockpit locker lids I made with Tek Dek for a previous boat - indeed almost as expensive as real teak wood - looked so much like "the real stuff" that visitors could not believe it wasn't ... raining or not.
"The real stuff" is practically unobtainable and almost certainly to be from illegal logging if you do find it, whatever the "from sustainable forest" label it may have. Plantation teak is likely to have nothing like the necessary density to "outlast" you - long may you live to post.
My 1981 HR, bought 4th-hand in 2005, has the original teak on the side decks, with a small aft deck between cockpit coaming and canoe stern that on purchase looked like new teak - it must have been renewed at some point. That aft area is now in a far worse condition than the original as fibres are breaking away from the wood at the sawn edges as the wood is so soft, which I interpret as an example of the difference in the available quality over the years.
pvb
Well-Known Member
My guess is that Tranona was talking about the cockpit table, which is standard fit and is teak veneered so looks darker when wet. There's no option not to mix if you want fake teak.
I specified the DuraDeck fake teak option on my Bavaria, and I'm delighted with the appearance, grip and ease of cleaning.
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Tranona
Well-Known Member
No. The boat had both cockpit seats and floor in the real stuff and the deck in fake. Did not ask the owner why he specified such a mix, but it did look odd.
pvb
Well-Known Member
I don't think the factory would build that. Was the deck retrofitted?
jwilson
Well-Known Member
Cockpit areas probably standard: might well have been done done before they stuck a batch of deck mouldings onto the hulls. On considering a new boat I asked if I could order one WITHOUT the teak in the cockpit, and was told no.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Not quietly enough - wash your mouth out, Tranona.
"The real stuff" is practically unobtainable and almost certainly to be from illegal logging if you do find it, whatever the "from sustainable forest" label it may have. Plantation teak is likely to have nothing like the necessary density to "outlast" you - long may you live to post.
My 1981 HR, bought 4th-hand in 2005, has the original teak on the side decks, with a small aft deck between cockpit coaming and canoe stern that on purchase looked like new teak - it must have been renewed at some point. That aft area is now in a far worse condition than the original as fibres are breaking away from the wood at the sawn edges as the wood is so soft, which I interpret as an example of the difference in the available quality over the years.
One of thee reasons for buying a new boat is that my use of the current one, which I love, is severely limited by the difficulty of getting it in an out of my berth. When the club laid out the marina, a 33' old style boat was considered big, and indeed we have an absolute limit of 38' except for 3 hammer head berths. Add to that my neighbour one side has a black hulled Southerly 35 and the other is the ex commodore's immaculate Freedom 35 - so no pressure there! Like you, I will be in my 8th decade when the boat is delivered and I want to get maximum use out of it while I can.
As to the teak, you are right about the quality of most new teak, however, I have the theory that most of the problems of the older style teak decks on GRP boats stems from the attachment of a flexible material to a rigid substrate and then putting fixed fastenings through it. The current method of thinner teak preformed into a panel and then vacuum bagged onto the deck only in the areas where there are no through fastenings results in a more stable structure. Certainly, as I said my current boat is made that way and is still fine. For side decks, with modern sail handling there is much less need to go on deck, so decks get an easier life than in the old days of all sail handling at the mast and changing headsails.
The surgeon only gave a 10 year guarantee on my reconditioned heart, so might not be around to see if I am right! - and of course the rest of the body might fall apart earlier.
nimbusgb
Well-Known Member
Always amuses me when someone turns their nose up at a few square metres of material that looks visually appealing and has so much going for it in terms of maintenance and durability.
It's not 'real' they complain!
Their 'real' stuff is usually fixed to the deck of several tons of glass reinforced plastic with hundreds of gelcoat piercing screws or bonded to the structure so as to make replacement of a section or the whole deck economically frightening.
Hilarious!
It's not 'real' they complain!
Their 'real' stuff is usually fixed to the deck of several tons of glass reinforced plastic with hundreds of gelcoat piercing screws or bonded to the structure so as to make replacement of a section or the whole deck economically frightening.
Hilarious!
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Tranona
Well-Known Member
No idea. The owner did not say. Will ask Clipper on Wednesday when we do the final spec and price on the boat (unless we get bowled over by the Jeanneau we are seeing on Tuesday).
BrianH
Well-Known Member
My bow thruster response was tongue-in-cheek, hence the smiley. When I was searching for my HR94 an immaculate German example in Cuxhaven was so equipped but taken off the market before I had viewed the other two in Holland. At the time that attribute had a negative effect on my decision-making process, rather than the opposite. Until I tried to reverse my eventual, not so equipped version, with truly a mind of its own, when I began to understand the point of such things. However, I still see them as something else to go wrong, especially in my marina where the dreaded tube worm that we are infested with seems to seek out propellers to build their colonies on. I have to immerse myself regularly in dubious waters to scrape before I can get any thrust from my propeller just to leave the berth. How to do that to one in a tunnel at the bow would be even more difficult.
Even with your reconditioned ticker you probably have more sailing future than I do ... outstripping you this year by entering my ninth decade. Santé.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Always amuses me when someone turns their nose up at a few square metres of material that looks visually appealing and has so much going for it in terms of maintenance and durability.
It's not 'real' they complain!
Their 'real' stuff is usually fixed to the deck of several tons of glass reinforced plastic with hundreds of gelcoat piercing screws or bonded to the structure so as to make replacement of a section or the whole deck economically frightening.
Hilarious!
Don't have any problem with plastic coverings stuck on to GRP per se, it was the mix on the boat I was looking at which I was commenting upon.
However, although sticking fake teak on plastic as an alternative to real teak may well have advantages over some types of teak, it has no advantage over the plastic it is being stuck to - other than as an imitation of real teak. "Real" and "Fake" are the correct adjectives to use to distinguish between the two. Interestingly fake is not sold on its properties as a plastic cover, but mainly on its likeness visually to teak!
BrianH
Well-Known Member
A fair comment and I can understand those who denigrate it on those grounds. It could be argued that an analogous example would be a bowl of plastic flowers in an otherwise tastefully furnished room.
When I do get around to renovating my decks, it will not be with either real or fake teak but with a light-coloured, non-slip, deck paint. The natural colour of wood, real or fake, gets too hot under the summer sun in the lower latitudes.
pvb
Well-Known Member
I'm certain it would have been retrofitted. When I ordered my Cruiser 37 a year ago, the factory option list only had 3 DuraDeck options -
* A247 DuraDeck on cockpit seats and bathing platform (in lieu of standard teak)
* A248 DuraDeck on cockpit floor, cockpit seats and bathing platform
* A265 DuraDeck on side deck (only in conjunction with DuraDeck on cockpit seats and bathing platform or DuraDeck on cockpit floor, cockpit seats and bathing platform.
Clipper were trying to sell me a stock boat, but it didn't have DuraDeck on the side decks. One of their guys said they could easily retrofit it; he said it came rolled up. It doesn't, real DuraDeck is a rigid flat sheet, so I think they were planning to fit something else. Incidentally, Clipper are the biggest shower imaginable - I've met used car salesmen with more knowledge and integrity. If I'd known then what I know now I wouldn't have bought a Bavaria. The product itself is lovely, but the whole process of getting it was dreadful.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
The current options price is different and does not show DuraDeck on side decks alone, only as a complete package with cockpit under A120 Comfort package options - effectively the same as your A248 which in the new list is just DuraDeck in the cockpit and bathing platform. However, teak side decks alone seem available without having teak in the cockpit! Curious.
All I can say about the process is that my last Bavaria purchase (admittedly 15 years ago) went like clockwork and the boat was made and delivered exactly on time with no faults. So far I have no complaints about my dealings with Clipper at either the Poole or Swanwick office, but of course the deal is not yet finalised. The only thing I have found frustrating, and this applies to the competitors as well is working your way through the spec sheets and option lists to determine exactly what you are getting for your money and being confident that it will actually be as you expect when it arrives. However, last Friday went over a boat of near identical spec to what we want that was made 3 weeks ago so got a pretty good idea about what is currently coming out of the factory.
pvb
Well-Known Member
Clipper have their own version of the Bavaria price list (or they certainly did last year), modified somewhat in terms of choice and pricing. There was quite a difference between it and the one I downloaded from the Bavaria website, perhaps allowing Clipper some room to offer notional "discounts".
smithy
Well-Known Member
I wonder where Bavaria source their teak, by all accounts it seems to last up ok so does that mean its not the plantation stuff? If its slow grown surely they would have to be able to prove its not from illegal sources.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Tried doing that but the Bavaria website just refers you to a dealer. I raised it with Clipper who say that the price list is a straight translation from German with their locally fitted options added at the end.
