Neeves
Well-Known Member
And we went from a 49lb Manson CQR clone, I weighed it, to a 15kg steel Excel and now use a 8kg alloy Excel (38' x 7t cat).
We would regularly drag with the Manson clone - that's now all history.
Jonathan
Why has the market not embraced alloy anchors?
- Thread starter Neeves
- Start date
And we went from a 49lb Manson CQR clone, I weighed it, to a 15kg steel Excel and now use a 8kg alloy Excel (38' x 7t cat).
We would regularly drag with the Manson clone - that's now all history.
Jonathan
Neeves
Well-Known Member
I find it interesting:
Fortress have been pushing the virtues of aluminium alloy (aka alloy) or lightweight for 3 decades and have spent a lot of money testing and illustrating their philosophy and have adverts everywhere. A huge tranche of the population, here, simply ignores the 'evidence'. Cost might be part of the issue as I do see more Fortress on bow rollers in America where Fortress are much cheaper - which implies - its money, not performance.
If Lewmar keep their costs down maybe we will see a change?
Jonathan
Fortress have been pushing the virtues of aluminium alloy (aka alloy) or lightweight for 3 decades and have spent a lot of money testing and illustrating their philosophy and have adverts everywhere. A huge tranche of the population, here, simply ignores the 'evidence'. Cost might be part of the issue as I do see more Fortress on bow rollers in America where Fortress are much cheaper - which implies - its money, not performance.
If Lewmar keep their costs down maybe we will see a change?
Jonathan
rickp
Well-Known Member
Neeves - you're using an alloy as your main anchor? I've had a Sarca Excel since 2011 when i got one from a shipment into the uk, organised by a guy on here iirc. Been very happy with it on the last 5 years of cruising. Now in Australia, and putting the boat on a diet due to 5 years of cruising clutter much of which we don't really need. I'm tempted by an alloy version of the sarca but concerned about the possibility of bendyness in the islands (particularly Fiji - the anchoring was rather 'corally' there). Thoughts?
NormanS
Well-Known Member
How do Americans cope with Fortress anchors on their bow rollers? I can't visualise a Fortress self-stowing on my bow roller. I keep mine as a second anchor, either taken out in the dinghy, or chucked over the side.
macd
Well-Known Member
I suspect that's exactly the case, at least in the UK.
(Not sure about Oz, which I believe is adjacent to Kansas.)
Neeves
Well-Known Member
I don't know where you are - but if you are near Sydney, today was the hottest for 12 months.
Don't worry (about the anchor)
Our steel Excel, 15kg, has a BIs 80 shank from a 12mm plate. The anchor has passed a standard Proof Load test. The shank is the same dimension as used on original Rocna (those made in NZ). There have been no reports of shanks bending on original, NZ made anchors, nor steel Excels.
The alloy Excel has a shank made from 7075 alloy and to compensate for the lower tensile strength the shank on my 8kg version and same size as the 15kg steel version, I think designated a No 4, is 18mm. My calculation is that the alloy shank is actually stronger than the steel original version.
The fluke itself has been put though its paces and is also indestructable.
The shank is demountable and involves a clever inverted T section where the shank is inserted from underneath and secured by the top of the 'T'. For real belt and braces it also has 2 stainlesss bolts. I was concerned the bolts might corrode and lock (especially as our alloy Excel hangs on the bow roller 24/7) and I replaced the stainless bolts with 7075 bolts (and did the same with our Fortress and Spade). This change was prompted as the stainless bolts on our FX23 (when we only had one Fortress) did corrode and were a devil to undo.
Armchair critics will tell you 7075 is not as corrosion resistant as 5083. This might be true (in fact it is) - but its relative - we have owned ours for almost 10 years now and for the first 5 years was one of our spares and I see no product of concern - at all. Once we had confidence - we retired the steel version.
Depend where you are but AR are based in Melbourne and it would be a good place to pick up - and he might do a deal with your old Excel - if you don't ask you will never know!
If your chain needs to be regal - Oz, or NZ, is a good place.
Jonathan
Neeves
Well-Known Member
rickp
Well-Known Member
Hi Jonathan, Pittwater today and yes, stinking hot. You in Sydney? I'll be heading back there for the SailGP regatta - saw them out the other day - wowser!
Thanks for the info on the excel - Rex has made me a very kind offer for a long standing customer, but just need to convince myself. I suspect I'll end up going ahead, and keeping the steel one for a season, then moving on...
Chain regalvanising is on the cards for teh end of this season when (current plan) is to be back in Oz, but that may change. I probably need to do a windlass change and work out how to stop the chain twisting. Aren't boats fun....
Thanks for the info on the excel - Rex has made me a very kind offer for a long standing customer, but just need to convince myself. I suspect I'll end up going ahead, and keeping the steel one for a season, then moving on...
Chain regalvanising is on the cards for teh end of this season when (current plan) is to be back in Oz, but that may change. I probably need to do a windlass change and work out how to stop the chain twisting. Aren't boats fun....
Neeves
Well-Known Member
Hi Jonathan, Pittwater today and yes, stinking hot. You in Sydney? I'll be heading back there for the SailGP regatta - saw them out the other day - wowser!
Thanks for the info on the excel - Rex has made me a very kind offer for a long standing customer, but just need to convince myself. I suspect I'll end up going ahead, and keeping the steel one for a season, then moving on...
Chain regalvanising is on the cards for teh end of this season when (current plan) is to be back in Oz, but that may change. I probably need to do a windlass change and work out how to stop the chain twisting. Aren't boats fun....
Yes, Sydney - and on Pittwater (and waiting for the southerly to come through! - a is all of Sydney).
Depending on the weather I'll be on the boat tomorrow. We are based at the southern end of Clareville, not far from Taylor's Point, just up the hill, and look north to Lion Island. The cat is roughly opposite Avalon Sailing Club on a swing mooring. As I type (1900hrs) - the wind is building, so I hope you are sheltered from wind from the S, it could be 30 knots!
Love to meet up, if you can get over to Clareville. I can meet you on our cat, but would need to confirm tomorrow.
Jonathan
edit: Appropriately continued by PM, my fault
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Zing
Well-Known Member
And if you had gone for a 30kg model it would have given you twice the holding capacity, slightly faster setting and somewhat more relaxed sleeping. I went much bigger when I changed to Rocna. No regrets.
Zing
Well-Known Member
They are great in soft mud. I have one as a kedge/spare. I wouldn’t use it as my main anchor as they are not good on rocky ground and don’t swivel in the ground well. Mine bent on a change of tide, so no good if a big change in direction may occur.
geem
Well-Known Member
I would never carry an aluminium anchor as my primary anchor on my boat. I dont believe they are strong enough for all conditions your anchor may encounter. On my last boat, a 37ft catamaran we used an aluminium Spade anchor of the recommended weight. We were anchored in a rocky anchorage in the Canary islands. We were using a manual windlass to recover the anchor that had hooked under a large rock. We motored around to try and release the anchor and we soon had the anchor up. To our dismay, the Spade anchor had split along its shaft, top to bottom. Spade replaced the anchor free of charge but we went for the same size in steel. Never had another problem and love the Spade anchor. That was all in 2004. We still have a Spade anchor on our current boat.
We also carry two aluminium anchors that I can deploy from the dinghy. The reason we choose aluminium for this job is the ease of handling. They are danforth type designs that hold well if properly set. We never use chain on these anchors but we do use about 10:1 rope to ensure they dont drag
We also carry two aluminium anchors that I can deploy from the dinghy. The reason we choose aluminium for this job is the ease of handling. They are danforth type designs that hold well if properly set. We never use chain on these anchors but we do use about 10:1 rope to ensure they dont drag
Neeves
Well-Known Member
Whereas I sympathise I find it amazing.
Based on one anchor made in a specific way, with a shank welded into a triangular cross section, you would not buy another alloy anchor made using an entirely different manufacturing technique from an aluminium alloy with a strength of 500 MPa and that shank beefed up to be as strong as, or stronger, than an 800 Mpa steel. The 800 Mpa steel has had no reports of failure - yet you would reject the alloy anchor out of hand - and the alloy shank might actually be stronger.
If everyone had rejected Rocna, on the same grounds, for the bendy shanks or Noelex had rejected Mantus for its bendy shank - where would we be now (certainly minus an excellent album of photos of anchors underwater).
If you put enough tension on any anchor it will bend, I've seen a Rocna with a bent toe - and I would have said that was impossible.
In both cases it might be fortunate the shank or toe bent - rather than pulling the bow roller off the yacht.
No wonder aluminium anchors never gained traction.
The manufacturers have a long way to go.
Jonathan
vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
The ultimate holding power of my 15 kg Rocna is considerably greater than the strength of the fastenings holding the rode to the deck, and probably than the deck itself. Once set correctly it has never dragged in 9 years of use, anchoring something like 200 nights per year and countless other times between. I have many photographs illustrating its setting within the length of its shank and many showing its reset in similar distances on wind changes.
I suggest you have indulged in overkill for no useful purpose.
geem
Well-Known Member
Whats the point in using an aluminium anchor as the main anchor? The steel one is cheaper. I have already had experience of aluminium anchor failure, from a reputable manufacturer, in benign conditions. The weight of the steel anchor compared to the aluminium anchor is not significant in the scale of things. My windlass weighs nearly twice as much as my steel anchor! My chain weighs considerably more. Steel works for anchors and unless you have a full on carbon facing monohull or a lightweight racing cat, I dont see the attraction of aluminium as a main anchor on a cruising boat unless you are the sort of guy that saws his toothbrush in half to save weight
GHA
Well-Known Member
Exactly. :encouragement:
And from a cruising perspective it's best to assume that sooner or later you'll be dreadful conditions where every little thing you can do to push the odds more in your favour is worth it.
Sometimes the forums is like trying to have a discussion with a speaking clock though
Zing
Well-Known Member
Never dragged in 9 years and up to 200 nights a year! Well done, a tremendous performance. I have dragged with my oversized anchor on soft ground or thin ground over rock or on loose coral. There are lots of ways to drag and I have done a good few even though my technique is pretty good. The big anchor only can help and in big blows I stay put usually whilst carnage often goes on around me. It is definitely not overkill. It also is a very small penalty in cost and weight for a large gain, so with no real downside and mainly upside it is what should be done. IMHO.
doug748
Well-Known Member
Yerp, there is always a downside usually several, that's the snag with alloy anchors as well.
vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
When I bought it the Rocna sizing guide stated that the recommendation was based upon holding in the strongest conceivable wind (not sure if it still says that). I assumed this would be something like force 10, as I doubt I would be out in any more. We have certainly come close to that on a couple of occasions, with no concerns as to the holding.
Neeves
Well-Known Member
+1
In good holding that 15kg Rocna should be good for about 2t hold. I, and I am sure Vyv (and most others), never, ever expect the tension in our rode to be 2t. In poor holding there is no evidence that a bigger anchor will be any better than a smaller one. In thin mud you would be better off with an anchor better suited to thin mud as tests suggest you would need a really big anchor, in Vyv's case a 45kg steel anchor, to develop dependable hold.
Strangely - for all the doubters - aluminium alloy, Fortress (slightly oversized), offers the best hold in thin mud.
If you were to use a steel 'equivalent' you would need a Danforth of around 20/25kg, rather than a Fortress of 8/12kg - I know which I would rather deploy. The Fortress might be more expensive - but to me its worth it (it has nothing to do with 'saving' weight (though cumulatively it helps) - its simply easier and safer).
It is slightly contradictory that without exception people say alloy anchors are more (and they imply 'too') expensive but go off and buy an anchor at least one size, sometime 2 sizes (and in the extreme - double the weight) of the anchor recommended. Oddly prices rise with size. And as Vyv says:
"I suggest you have indulged in overkill for no useful purpose."
That overindulgence cost extra money - for no useful purpose
One day someone will produce categorical and robust evidence that a larger anchor, than that recommended, does offer available and useful extra hold - until that happens - its all about gut feel.
But a Rocna, or Excel or Spade is better 'by design' not weight - bigger is not better, better (design) is betterer.
And if its not weight, why not aluminium alloy - if it is available in a betterer design - noting if you read the complete thread - Spade appear to have upgraded the shank of the alloy Spade. They have been listening - if slow to react.
Jonathan
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