Why has the market not embraced alloy anchors?

[CAPTAIN FANTASTIC]

In summary to the question "Why has the market not embraced alloy anchors" appears to be that people don't like them because they are twice the price and not "heavy" enough. The issue with high price I can understand, but the weight issue is a bit of surprise that there is a misconception that weight (and material) is the determining factor rather than the design of the anchor. Designs, with the aid of computers and material technology has improved significantly. With the advancement of Additive Manufacturing, production costs will be reduced, in the near future.

 

[GHA]

but the weight issue is a bit of surprise that there is a misconception that weight (and material) is the determining factor rather than the design of the anchor.

More like one of many determining factors in certain bottoms.

Obviously guessing as I haven't the wallet to go alloy, but why would you bother on a cruising boat, maybe lightweight cat but for the rest if us why bother

 

[CAPTAIN FANTASTIC]

More like one of many determining factors in certain bottoms.

Obviously guessing as I haven't the wallet to go alloy, but why would you bother on a cruising boat, maybe lightweight cat but for the rest if us why bother

I agree, however, handling an aluminium anchor like the Fortress its so easy because its so light. Is the weight enough to justify the huge cost?

 

[JumbleDuck]

In summary to the question "Why has the market not embraced alloy anchors" appears to be that people don't like them because they are twice the price and not "heavy" enough. The issue with high price I can understand, but the weight issue is a bit of surprise that there is a misconception that weight (and material) is the determining factor rather than the design of the anchor.

Judging by these forums, most people who buy NG anchors buy the same weight as their old one, or often more. This despite the general belief that NG designs are several times more efficient. This suggests to me that people still think weight matters more than design, even when they have more money than sense.

 

[Lon nan Gruagach]

One thing about the market is that only half of it is sailing boats. The other half, motor boats, can sometimes benefit from extra weight on the nose. But the main reason I’ve never considered an alloy anchor is that I’ve never seen one! But the real question I want to ask is what type of rode goes with an aluminium anchor?

Galv chain

 

[Lon nan Gruagach]

I'm puzzled by this "weight in the nose" business. A Bavaria Cruiser 34 weighs 5.3 tonnes empty, so about 6 tonnes in cruising trim. Spade#s "Anchor Selector Wizard" recommends either a 15kg S80- or a 7.5kg A80 (note to sceptics, yes, they recommend aluminium for the main anchor) for that size. Going for steel instead of aluminium will shift the centre of gravity forward by (7kg x 5m) / (6,000kg) = just under 6mm. How terrible is that?

Oy vey!

Static CoG is meeby less than half the story. Moment of inertia carries much weight (see what I did there?) too.

 

[Bouba]

Judging by these forums, most people who buy NG anchors buy the same weight as their old one, or often more. This despite the general belief that NG designs are several times more efficient. This suggests to me that people still think weight matters more than design, even when they have more money than sense.

I did that, it’s really belt and braces. If you are unhappy with your original anchor then the double whammy from better design and more weight is too good to pass up.

 

[dgadee]

Judging by these forums, most people who buy NG anchors buy the same weight as their old one, or often more. This despite the general belief that NG designs are several times more efficient. This suggests to me that people still think weight matters more than design, even when they have more money than sense.

No, I went down from 20kg to 15kg. That was one of the reasons for going NG - make it easy to take the anchor off the bow roller and put it into the anchor locker.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Static CoG is meeby less than half the story. Moment of inertia carries much weight (see what I did there?) too.

OK, so in that case a 15kg anchor at the bow adds the same pitching J as a 75kg crew member sitting halfway down the cockpit. How much damage does that do?

 

[rszemeti]

Well, depends on how fat the crew member is, and whether they move out of the way when asked ...

Anyway, while we are on the subject of aluminium anchors, I wonder of any of you alloy anchors chaps would be interested in purchasing some open weave / netting sails? They are much lighter than regualr sails, plus test have shown the boat will heel a lot less.

 

[Neeves]

One conclusion I identify is that the those have embraced aluminium alloy (aka alloy) are committed and the primary reason is the light weight. They value the light weight, not because of the savings on the bow, but because (as they use the alloy as a secondary anchor, it is so much easier to manhandle (and presumably woman handle). The lower weight does not impact their perception of performance off the anchor, an alloy anchor does not appear to 'underperform nor disappoint'. My guess is the people who have and use alloy anchors would do the same again (and always carry an alloy anchor.

Those that don't like an alloy anchor seem to think the whole concept wrong, design is irrelevant, weight is the key. This is negativity is reinforced because they are so expensive.

Weight in the bow? Its not the weight of one anchor. Most people cruising outside home waters will carry a number of anchors (I met one cruising yacht, out of the UK but met in southern Australia) they carried 7 full sized anchors. 7 steel anchors on a 35/40' yacht is a lot of extra ballast - its less if you can replace some of the steel anchors with alloy. Cost on a cruising yacht is a reduced factor - having alloy is so much more convenient - a 20kg anchor is manageable, a 20 kg anchor with chain becomes much of a handful (and much less if its a 10kg alloy anchor).

The manufacturers have obviously been at fault - they simply have not overcome the idea that weight is critical in anchors. This idea that weight is the answer is underpinned, as mentioned, with the idea that when you replace that 20kg CQR you go off and buy a 30kg Rocna or Mantus (even though the Rocna, weight for weight, has double the holding capacity, sets more easily, sets reliably and holds consistently).

The idea that bigger is unnecessary but better is better does not appear to impact consciousness - and is a primary reason alloy has not been embraced.

Jonathan.

 

[Bouba]

People talk about money and I agree. It’s not like you can use an anchor for a season then return it and get your money back. So even though a bigger anchor is more money, it’s cheaper if it’s the right one first time.

 

[john_q]

The only people who can answer this question are those who have actually compared similar models in both steel and (aluminium) alloy. This limits the information base to those who own, or have owned, an alloy Spade and steel Spade

Frankly I cannot tell the difference between our 2 Spades and our 2 Excels and our steel versions, of both Spade and Excel, are collecting dust in my workshop. In a hard seabed the Excel, well - excels - its has a sharper toe.

Jonathan

We have had Alloy Spade anchors since 2004. After bending the shaft of both of the alloy ones we now have the same size Spade but in steel. This is on the same boat with the same size chain. The steel Spade is 2 x the weight of the alloy ones and it certainly seems to set quicker in the area where we are at the moment where the bottom is soupy mud at the surface and harder mud underneath. You do have to patient and let the anchor sink through the top layer for it to set properly. Trying to back down at 5 knots is just amusement for the rest of the anchorage

I would expect there will be very little difference in sand between the 2 materials although I would expect the extra weight of the steel should help it penetrate the sand a bit quicker.

I can confirm that if the shaft of the Spade is bent IT WILL NOT WORK AT ALL WELL IF AT ALL. I am pretty sure both of the alloy anchors were bent during rough weather where the wind direction changed through 180 degrees or whilst retrieving them in rough weather on a short scope afterwards.

We also carry a small Fortress which has worked very well as a second anchor and in thin sand as a main anchor and a big Guardian that I have not had to use yet

 

[JumbleDuck]

Well, depends on how fat the crew member is, and whether they move out of the way when asked ...

Anyway, while we are on the subject of aluminium anchors, I wonder of any of you alloy anchors chaps would be interested in purchasing some open weave / netting sails? They are much lighter than regualr sails, plus test have shown the boat will heel a lot less.

I presume you stick to nice heavy flax sails, preserved with cutch.

 

[saab96]

Why have sailors not embraced alloy anchors?
Some aluminium alloys are formulated to slow down electrolytic action in salt water but it’s a big risk if the alloy isn’t perfect or if the anchor contacts something down there to help form a battery. The electrochemical corrosion of aluminium in salt water is unpredictable. It can happen so rapidly that your intended overnight on the anchor may not last that long. The same can happen to that other alloy we all love – shiny 316 stainless steel. Actually I hate the stuff although I have enough on my boat. You will see lots of aluminium anchors on American boats in marinas, and lots of stainless anchor chain too. Best they keep them there – in the marina, out of the water, where they can polish them – and don’t try dangling them in the water.

 

[vyv_cox]

Judging by these forums, most people who buy NG anchors buy the same weight as their old one, or often more. This despite the general belief that NG designs are several times more efficient. This suggests to me that people still think weight matters more than design, even when they have more money than sense.

I went from a 16kg Delta to a 15 kg Rocna. Just about every factor is somewhat better with the Rocna.

 

[[70521]]

Going back to the original question. How many new boats are produced worldwide each year, what it the size of the aftersales market? Unless you can sell into the new boat market then alloy will never take off.

 

[noelex]

We have had Alloy Spade anchors since 2004. After bending the shaft of both of the alloy ones we now have the same size Spade but in steel. This is on the same boat with the same size chain. The steel Spade is 2 x the weight of the alloy ones and it certainly seems to set quicker in the area where we are at the moment where the bottom is soupy mud at the surface and harder mud underneath. You do have to patient and let the anchor sink through the top layer for it to set properly. Trying to back down at 5 knots is just amusement for the rest of the anchorage

I would expect there will be very little difference in sand between the 2 materials although I would expect the extra weight of the steel should help it penetrate the sand a bit quicker.

Thanks for the great report John.

That fits in with my underwater observations. Looking at the two anchors underwater it is much easier to see how they differ. The contrast in performance between the aluminium and steel versions is very readily apparent. If you have the chance to view these two anchors underwater you do not need to see many examples to pick the more capable anchor.

It is much tougher to pick these difference from the boat end, but it is worth trying to watch and feel for the often subtle clues that your anchor is struggling.

However, it should be stressed that the aluminium Spade is still a good, perhaps even a very good anchor. If you anchor in a soft sand or a medium mud substrate the differences between the aluminium and steel versions can largely be ignored. It is in difficult substrates where the differences become readily apparent, but I think the aluminium Spade is still a far more capable anchor than, for example, a steel Delta. The aluminium Spade only misses out when comparing the anchor to the excellent steel Spade or other top anchors. However, I would encourage potential purchasers to think carefully about the importance and benifits of the weight saving, for their particular application, before buying the aluminium version.

 

[Neeves]

Thanks for the great report John.

That fits in with my underwater observations. Looking at the two anchors underwater it is much easier to see how they differ. The contrast in performance between the aluminium and steel versions is very readily apparent. If you have the chance to view these two anchors underwater you do not need to see many examples to pick the more capable anchor.

It is much tougher to pick these difference from the boat end, but it is worth trying to watch and feel for the often subtle clues that your anchor is struggling.

However, it should be stressed that the aluminium Spade is still a good, perhaps even a very good anchor. If you anchor in a soft sand or a medium mud substrate the differences between the aluminium and steel versions can largely be ignored. It is in difficult substrates where the differences become readily apparent, but I think the aluminium Spade is still a far more capable anchor than, for example, a steel Delta. The aluminium Spade only misses out when comparing the anchor to the excellent steel Spade or other top anchors. However, I would encourage potential purchasers to think carefully about the importance and benifits of the weight saving, for their particular application, before buying the aluminium version.

In view of your total inability to spot the setting characterise of your Mantus and then be completely unable to explain, once it was pointed out to you based on analysis of YOUR photos, why this very usual characteristic is advantage I would think many people would wonder at your observation skills underwater. You make outrageous statements you cannot support, such as a big anchor is 'safer' at short scope, but are unable to explain how this works. You are quite happy to troll Spade, or be condecending in your praise - yet the anchor you champion has the hold of a Delta, and half the hold of a Rocna (of the same size).

And for information - news off the grape vine is that Spade have altered the shank of their alloy anchor - possibly to address the issues outlined on this thread.

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

I think there maybe a misconception about reducing anchor weight and opting for aluminium alloy in place of steel.

Yachts today, those coming off the production line, and this includes catamarans, tend to be lighter, for the same length, as models that came off the production line 10 or 20 years ago. They all tend to be susceptible to being overloaded, in general not specifically in the bow. At the extreme we have racing yachts, where weight is very much a fetish.

Replacing your 30kg steel anchor with a 15kg alloy version is just part of the philosophy, which many may not subscribe to. But if you look at all the small savings - they are obviously cumulative. Cutting the handle off your toothbrush - is simply underlining what it is all about. But it not about one anchor - surely everyone carries at leat 2 anchors (when on an extended cruise - we are not talking 1 x 30kg anchor but 2 or 3.

Do you need an outboard, oars are lighter and offer exercise. Could you use smaller chain? Do you buy your Gordon gin in plastic bottles (if its good enough for an airline its good enough for us), do you actually need to carry gear pullers and have spanners and sockets in both imperial and metric sizes etc. Can you cut out some of the spanners as they don't fit anything on your yacht anyway.

But we like to get the best out of our yacht, we enjoy averaging 10 knots over 100nm - but if we carried 100m of 10mm chain, had a 50kg anchor, (plus a couple of spares of the same weight) etc etc.

And then of course alloy allow you to safely deploy a spare off the bow or from a dinghy, try that with a 30kg anchor with a bit of 10mm chain.

Jonathan