Why double-ended harness lines ?

[Benbow]

It is always being said that harness lines should be double-ended so that you can release yourself if trapped. I seriously wonder if there are ever circumstances when you would be better to do this than to stay attached to the boat. A while ago there was the tale of a delivery boat in Biscay, rolled by a breaking wave and 2 went overboard. They released their harnesses because they were ‘trapped’, one died and the other survived only because they were very close to land. A man who remained on the boat was relatively unscathed. It seems to me that you are almost always better to stay attached to the boat even if you are being held underwater – a conventional boat is highly likely to right itself, but if you detach yourself you are highly unlikely to survive. After all, following a roll what are the chances of a remaining crew organising themselves to conduct an MOB recovery before you vanish ?

I wonder if this idea being drilled into our minds that we should always be ready to cut ourselves free from the boat is in fact extremely bad advice.

Any thoughts?


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[Talbot]

The reason for the double enders is very simple. A quite famous boat inverted and two crewmen died because they had single ended harness and were unable to release themselves - of course if they had been carrying a knife then this would not have been a problem!

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[Vara]

The points you make are valid but,I believe though that there have been some cases where not being able to undo at the body end has caused problems and even death.(Morning cloud?).
IMHO it is better to have the option to cast off at both ends.
When going below it is also more convenient as you can cast off body end leaving it secured to cockpit strongpoint

<hr width=100% size=1>If it can't be fixed with a lump hammer dont fit it!

 

[Benbow]

Well I am sure that some people have died because they were trapped by their harness, as some people have died in a car because they were trapped by their seatbelt.

For most cruising monohulls, I imagine that the best chance of survival will come from not detaching yourself. Nothing is certain in such circumstances but you are not likely to be thinking very rationally when under a rolling boat and if the idea that you should release yourself is lodged in your brain, then you are likely to do that. If offshore, your chance of survival then becomes very low.

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[snowleopard]

yes, the change from tethers which used to be spliced to the harness originated with the sinking of morning cloud. as she went down a crewman was dragged down with her as he couldn't get to the far end of the tether to release himself. memory fades but i think he eventually got free - i'm sure some SBers will know.

my cat (though extremely unlikely to invert) could leave me trapped underneath by my harness and unable to swim clear if i couldn't unhook it.

advocating a return to one-hook lines is a bit like saying seat belts can injure you so don't wear them.

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[Benbow]

>advocating a return to one-hook lines is a bit like saying seat belts can injure you so don't wear them.<


Seat belts are far more likely to save your life than to kill you; so it is sensible to wear them. I am simply asking the equivalent question about a decision to unhook in a rollover. Not advocating single-ended harnesses.

Imagine yourself as a delivery skipper briefing a new crew. As you hand-out and supervise fitting and use of harnesses, you could add either:

‘….and there is a hook at the harness end so that you can release yourself if trapped underwater’

or

‘…..and there is a hook at the at the harness end for convenience, but if this boat rolls it WILL right itself so DO NOT detach yourself if trapped under the boat. You WILL die if you become separated from the boat.’

which briefing has the best associated chance of survival ?

 

[Talbot]

<<but if this boat rolls it WILL right itself >>

Thats a pretty dangerous statement that could lead you into all sorts of problems. For it to be true under all circumstances you need to be certain what the AVS is and whether she will right when upside down (and how quickly). A lot of the more modern designs are shaped to float nicely when inverted, and most monohulls will float inverted if they lose their keels!

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[l'escargot]

At least if you have a double ended harness you have both options. If there is no one else left on board, there is no way you will get back in the boat, if it is still making way you are likely to be drowned in minutes. There may be circumstances (not offshore) where seperating yourself from the boat could (and it is a big could) let you survive long enough to be found if you were in relatively confined waters such as The Solent.

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[Benbow]

My point is that I am not convinced that you really do have multiple options. If you are trapped under a boat offshore and you are not going to be thinking

'Jimmy is below and so will probably still be on board, we were hit by a breaking wave so we probably haven't lost our keel, there is no vessel nearby, this vessel has an AVS of 140 degrees, the water temperature is 8C, Jimmy is reasonably strong, I can survive 60 seconds underwater, Jimmy may not know where the emergency VHF aerial is...therefore I should stay clipped-on.'

You will be thinking 'aaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhh hang on hang on hang on'

or

'aaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhh get out get out get out'

I am wondering which instinct we should be promoting under 'typical' circumstances ?

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[l'escargot]

"Promoting" an "instinct" is a contradiction and would you be in a position to decide whether you are in a "typical" situation and act accordingly in the circumstances you describe? What you need are as many options as possible to react to the situation you actually find yourself in, rather than limit yourself to a single reaction to the situation you hope to find yourself in.

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[jleaworthy]

One of the most dangerous movements at sea in bad weather is coming up from below and maybe having to climb over the top of weather boards or at least the bridge deck before gaining the safety of the cockpit. I believe it is essential to be clipped on during the whole of this movement. This is easiest if, on previously going below, the line is left attached to the cockpit strong point with the wearer unclipping from the body end once safely below - the movement being reversed in order to regain the cockpit. Much simpler and more straightforward than I've made it sound!

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[Peppermint]

Re: No sorry you\'ve lost me.

Surely the twin clip idea just gives you one more option. I suspect that most people would know instinctivly whether to take that option or not.

Whether floating free or staying attached kills you or not rather depends on to many variables to be decided in the abstract. But at least as you turn blue you've got one more thing to try, one more chance to reach the surface. If the seas going to kill me I'd rather it did it while I was still trying to survive rather than being helplessly trapped by my "safety equipment".

Otherwise you are helping the rescue services. All the bodies being attached to the boat will make them easier to find.

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