Why don't boat builders share bits?

petem

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Why don\'t boat builders share bits?

As Fairline and Princess are owned by the same holding company why don't they share common components to save money?

I suppose the biggest component would be hulls. Surely the hull for a Princess 38 and a Phantom 38 would have pretty similar requirements? After all car manufacturers share chassis across brands (VW/SEAT/SKODA or FORD/JAGUAR)

If they still wish to keep the brands separate then there's a lot that could still differentiate the separate boats.

To take this to a logical conclusion why not go the whole hog and contract out hull moulding to a company that utiluses the latest construction methods, rather than doing it by hand like at the Failrine Museum. They could see if SeaRay or Binliner could build them (to a Olesinski design naturally)!
 

jfm

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Re: Why don\'t boat builders share bits?

I have no idea why but the two Renwick companies, F'line and Princess seem to share absolutely nothing at all. They seem to operate entirely independently, I asked a director of F at the factory visit in May if they collaborated on anything and he said no. I wonder if they even group purchase their materials, surely they must but there's no evidence. They make moody yachts too, that's a lot of cans of polyester goo and glass matting and volvo motors.

It cannot be to keep competition authorities happy, becuase if there were a monopoly or near-monopoly then operating the companies separately simply would not satisfy the regulators. So they do it out of choice. Strange. The only reason I can think is that they want to increase market share by fragmented branding. Like if the customer thinks they're the same firm then he/she chooses say a renwick boat or a sealine or a broom so 1/3 of market held by Renwick (all other things being equal, and assuming they are the only boats in the market). But if he/she sees them as separate then there is a choice between f'line, princess, s'line and broom so renwick gets 1/2 of market. A technique made up up by soap firms ie Daz, Persil, Omo all Unilever or whatever

I wouldn't think there's any business case to hive off or contract out hull manufacture as you suggest. This is a cottage industry and f'line et all can do it as well as a specialist hull builder could, they have big enuf scale already, plus the transportation would be costly, and anyway there's lots of fibreglassing to do at various build stages. That said, F'line do contract out their tool manufacture to a specialist firm, the same one that does Broom and others, and as it happens I know the bloke who owns that firm, well kind of, I know his brother, he came out for a sail on our boat this summer
 

ArthurWood

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Re: Why don\'t boat builders share bits?

I think Bruswick Marine who own Sea ray, B-liner, Sealine etc also allow their companies to operate independently, too, but they do use modern manufacturing methods. (not sure about Sealine)
 

tripleace

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Re: Why don\'t boat builders share bits?

I was unaware that so many boat builders were owned by such a small group. Is this why everything is so over priced.

Is a cartel working??
 
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Deleted User YDKXO

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Re: Why don\'t boat builders share bits?

Tempting as it is to think that people are stupid, you've got to believe that a plc like Renwick have given proper consideration to merging parts of the two operations and concluded that there are no economies to be gained. In any case the whole of the British boat building industry uses common components. With a few exceptions, engines are sourced from Volvo with the other components coming from the Sowester/Simpson-Lawrence catalogue, at least until S/S-L went bust recently.
 
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Re: fline princess

Throughout ownership of t48 I asked about forthcoming bigger stuff. During period of 5 years from launch of t48 at LBS, sseeker launched p80 mid96, p70ish praps mid 98, p58 sometime, and lots more. Meanwhile fline did t30, t43, t34. Princess stretched had v52 around 96, stretched to v55, launched v65 in erm early 2000?

During all this time, nag nag from me got the response that those on high at Fline and Princess were told not to encroach on others market. Evident sales bollox, since princess22m is head-on to sq62 and similarly in lots of other areas. Now, Princess 25m and soon Fline seventy-something. Big-selling t48 owners left to sod off elsewhere, tho spose that a diffrent thread.

Still surprised that at least casual interchange of technology does not happen. Princess need to be told how to design internals nicely like fline, and that galleys with wooden worktops are silly. Fline need to be told to get on their own boats in the sea and watch lots of fittings fall off, then fixem. I believe that both feel that they have loyal customer base - but mebbe in the same way as BMC/BL beleievd the same in the seventies. Eventually found that lots did not give a toss what the car was called, nor who made it, and as long as the boat wasn't called Nazi, we'd all buy german cars. Sailyboats already gone this way, jen/ben/bav ripping into previously uk-held home market inside 10?/15? years. At least the uk mboat manufacturers seem a little more wised up and use lengths as the model name, tho Fline still hang on to proud subnames for targas (eg the t48 says Grand Tourismo on the back) and Phantom/Squadron confusion about hwo big a phantom can be and how small a squadron can be.

Certainly the range of Princess seems to make a lot more sense than that of Fline, with sensible large jumps from v40 to v50(which shd have 3cabins imho) to v55 and v65 frexample. Moderate volumes of engines and so on may not attract megadiscounts even if doubled by collusion. Also rewported that bigwigs at renwick say that they are hand-off, bought 2 boat companies, not one, and that's how it is.

No conclusive good answer from me, still less from them, it seems - hence little or no basis for sharing: princess fittings are naff, fairlines drop off. Can't see either tech department hankering after the knowledege or input from the others. From Fline article, since neither princess nor any customer read auto/boat design at coventry Uni, we can sod off. Likewise since all at princess all very seaworthy but live in Plymouth, they all think the bigger boats fabulously posh cos they have carpet innem, and don't care much for the wooftahs oop north with girlified interiors.

Alan Sugar once said that if you ask a brit manufacturer for white, they winge and say white is a bit hard to do, and suggest beige cos that's what they do, and everyone else has that, so won't that do? Ask the koreans, and they'll send 25 swatches of white by return and ask you to pick one. Does your boat NEED to be UK-made? Mine doesn't. Neither does most people car these days.

Time to launch a new range of boats called, oh, Coastliner or Sunray. There'll be a 24, 30, 36, 42, 52 65 foot open boats, 36 and 42 aft cabins, 30 36 42 52 65 in flybridge, so only seven hulls. They'll have standard nav kit, and standard engines, from just one manufactureer, whoever gives best deal on warranties. They'll all use a range of standard cushions, matresses, taps, hinges, doors, handles, cleats windows and lots more, which will be interchangeable between models available easily aftermarket and direct from web site or from a dealer. Aircon on 52+ std, fake teak on all as std, petrol option on smaller models, bypassable holding tanks on all models. They'll all have the same engine manufacturer, and only one engine option on larger models so nobody accidentally buys the cheapyengined option. The hulls will be made in far east, and we'll screw them together on N Kent coast or Hastings or somewhere where we can get a nice grant. Styling will be modern but not too modern so it goes out of date in four minutes, and we won't bugger around with the models every year, so resale will be good. I feel that the foreigners are getting closer to this, faster, than the UK.
 
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Re: fline princess

Very thought provoking - I'd be surprised if it takes 10 years. I've been looking at the BMB range, and while they still need to do more, I've got no doubt they'll take a huge share of the European market in due course. Admitedly the high value of sterling doesn't help the UK industry, but the comparison with the car and motorcycle market can only make anyone proud to buy British weep (unless you have a Morgan of course!)
 

petem

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Re: fline princess

I wholeheartedly agree with your range although apparently flybridges below 36 foot don't really work.

I also agree that unless Fairline/Princess/Sealine aren't careful others like Cranchi and Bavaria might give them a nasty surprise.

Not sure if you mentioned this but i'd fit all boats with cloth covers for cockpit seating like the scandavians do, not the normal cheapo vinyl that's a bugger to keep clean.

Also to help residuals why not keep model numbers the same. Works wonders for BMW and Mercedes.
 

jfm

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PLCs not that clever

Ooooh please dont assume that just because a public company does it, it must be right. In fact Renwick is private, it's (ultimately) owned by a private South African company (Renwick itself is a plc, but owned by a S African company, and it is a privately held plc as opposed to a publicly quoted plc).

If you want examples of publicly quoted plc screw ups, how long have you got? Emap buy Petersen Mags for £1bn ish, sell it 3 yrs later for £400m ish. MarksnSparks. Etc. The thing is, plc (I mean the quoted ones) directors get praps £300k pa typically, a few top ones get praps a million ish. But that's peanuts compared with private company rewards so it isn't gonna attract the top chaps and chapesses. The real smart brains in this country own/operate private businesses.

Not criticising Renwick, just commenting that plc actions are not necessarilt smart.
 

jfm

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Matts PLC IPO prospectus

This is fine strategy IMHO. Only extra bit needed is massive promo spend to create instantly attractive brand. And the styling of the boats must be fab but this BB can sort that

Using same hulls is very smart. Why dont F'line etc do this? They make a 40 fb boat and 40 sports cruiser and use different hulls. Making a tool (mould) for a 40-50 footer hull costs £3/4 to £1mill. So sharing per above plan saves praps £7mill plus 7x Olesinski hull fees. Massive economy in a cottage industry. The styling/performance compromises would be tiny, well worth it, and easy to make a few diffs like putting the hull windows in different positions for the fb and the sprtcruz models etc

Also locate business in tax haven, double check any advice given by Nick on this aspect ;-)
 
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Re: make yerown PLC

A UK ltd company has limited liabilty provided that it publishes accounts. Lower limite is 2 directors, 1 pound each, two quid. All creditors of most uk ltd co share £2 i.e. sod all.

A plc must be limited in its liabilty to £50k. Hurrah! ....of which 25% must be issued. But you can issue shares against a promissary note to companies house. So sod all outlay. Only other requirement is a funds flow statement, and to giv the auditors a good kicking re audit fees and don't give me any of that disbursements shit. If the auditors (or any other supplier) even suggest the idea of paying for lunch, sackem.
 
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Guest

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Re: Matts PLC IPO presentation outline

confess i winged it on double use of hulls open flybridge. I mentioned this to fairline ooh haha no sir. Eh? Only blimmin 30 knots tops, who cares if pile of grp up top, and angle of windscreen is wotever the bloke drew - not as if any wind tunnel calc made, i bet, nor valid at low speeds.

Poss share ownership offshore, phys location onshore for startup grant, all part-time 30 hrs at min wage contracts plus piece work free to use works facilites in own time, all shopfloor supervisors get fab title of General Manager, cheapy audit 5k, plus oh blimmin alright fixed 5k pa signoff from tame big six (glasgow office) and occassional free demo heap for IPC. Inaugural launch in NEast poss Sedgefield with local MP/int'l jetsetting shag-happy freeloader on board, no wife/family, topless blonde/brunette token black (pc eh?) bimbettes c/w black bikmini bottoms stashed in aft cabin until away from jetty, helishots on boatname PREMIER, felt pen over tittys on photos for UK/US market. Consider simultaneous boat PREMIER with desperate minor Royal in med, and/or chatup Andrew Neil/Paulo Maldini often (were last year anyway) hanging out in St trpez boatless onto L23, then transf to Fantastico = mid-toprange sunheap once in Gulf of St T, all for ratif./powerpoint thru appropriate boat-connected city stuff types, natch, cheque £28m for 49% to Comfortably Offshore but the cab is waiting to take us to Deloittes for 11.30 who do a nice lunch and another VC gang at 3 and due in Italy tomorrow....
 
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Deleted User YDKXO

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Re: PLCs not that clever

I did'nt say that the actions of all PLC's are smart; you only have to look at the financial pages to see that. Looking for synergies between these two companies is just such a total no-brainer that I cannot believe somebody in the Renwick organisation did'nt look at it.
BTW, as a owner/operator of a private business, I'm really flattered to be called a 'real smart brains'. Now I just have to convince everybody else!
 

jfm

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Did ya say Deloittes?

...as in Deloitte and Touche? Then you mean Toilet and Delouche, as they're known in the trade

Anyway, have you done an IPO roadshow before? You seem remarkably spot on re the details? Perfect example of how profligate people get when business no longer privately owned so cash no longer as important as before, book profit suddenly takes priority, and so capitalisable costs like IPO incidentals suddenly become mega extravagant.....
 

petem

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Re: Why don\'t boat builders share bits?

Mike,

You're probably right, an MBY interview with top bods from Fairline/Princess would be interesting.

However, I don't conclude that just becuase you are a plc it doesn't make you immune to mistakes, take Marconi, BT or BMW for examples.

I suspect there is just some resilience to change in the boating industry. I bought a new Fairline and can't say that I was terribly impressed with the company/organisation.

Regards, Pete
 
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Guest

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Re: ooer

No, I made it all up! I saw that "attractions" program on the telly be4 it got all boring. Fraid I am not much kop at big meetings because I get distracted by the biscuits.
 
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