why do we still have standing rigging?

[wotayottie]

Planes no longer have wires to hold the wings on. Masts can be made out of carbon epoxy poles. So why do all major new boat builders only offer crude ally masts with wire rigging? Is it just cost?

 

[prv]

Conservatism. There are some boats built with self-supporting masts, but it appears that not many people want to buy them.

Pete

 

[Cardo]

I once saw a US flagged boat - a lovely, big beastie in East Cowes Marina that had a stay-less mast. The engineering looked pretty impressive. No doubt cost a few arms and legs.

 

[Sybarite]

I once saw a US flagged boat - a lovely, big beastie in East Cowes Marina that had a stay-less mast. The engineering looked pretty impressive. No doubt cost a few arms and legs.

I have seen the argument with respect to aerorigs which says that a large part of the initial cost can be offset by the savings on rigging and on winches. I have no idea how much extra they cost though.

 

[wotayottie]

Wasnt particularly thinking of the aerorig which hasnt succeeded in its various forms. But a pal has a Freedom with unstayed masts which seems to me to be the way to go.

 

[prv]

I have seen the argument with respect to aerorigs which says that a large part of the initial cost can be offset by the savings on rigging and on winches. I have no idea how much extra they cost though.

Aerorigs aren't the only stayless rigs, of course. I've never seen an aerorig, but I've seen lots of Freedom-rigged boats; there are a couple at my yard and I think the yacht in Cowes is one too. For some reason there seems to be a congregation of them on the Yealm in Devon as well.

Junk rig would count too

One drawback that isn't obvious is that there is less to hold onto as you move around the deck

Pete

 

[Cardo]

I have seen the argument with respect to aerorigs which says that a large part of the initial cost can be offset by the savings on rigging and on winches. I have no idea how much extra they cost though.

Ah, yes, looks like an Aerorig is what the boat I saw was sporting. Impressive, even if it hasn't been proven to be particularly viable!

 

[aslabend]

I would have thought unstayed rigs would be heavier which would become a bigger factor for smaller boats.

 

[V1701]

Anything unstayed would have to be keel stepped, what about deck stepped masts, can't have them unstayed & most boats have deck stepped now...

 

[[70521]]

why do we still have standing rigging?

Because it works.

 

[prv]

Anything unstayed would have to be keel stepped, what about deck stepped masts, can't have them unstayed & most boats have deck stepped now...

I'm not quite sure what the point is here. Yes, most boats have deck-stepped stayed masts these days. If unstayed rigs were more popular, many of them would have keel-stepped, unstayed masts. So... ?

It's true of course that an unstayed mast, keel stepped and almost inevitably fatter than a stayed one, takes up a certain amount of cabin space. The Freedom Ketches had their accommodation layout designed around the masts, with an offset companionway beside the after one.

Pete

 

[prv]

I would have thought unstayed rigs would be heavier which would become a bigger factor for smaller boats.

I don't know whether that's true. Our new boat has about the most minimal set of stays possible for a conventional rig (forestay, two cap shrouds, two short lowers, plus a backstay made of dinghy wire because it's purely a tuning control and not a mast support) and it's still an appreciable weight of metal. Modern unstayed masts are made almost invariably in carbon-fibre and epoxy, and though their outer diameter is fat I don't think the wall thickness is excessive. I have no figures for their typical weight, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that they're typically lighter than an equivalent aluminium mast and its supporting stainless wire.

Pete

 

[BobPrell]

One drawback that isn't obvious is that there is less to hold onto as you move around the deck

Pete

One drawforward [opposite of drawback] is that when you do any work with lines over the side, like anchoring, berthing, or towing, the line can be moved to anywhere on the boat without having to carry it round the stays.

 

[mjcoon]

Planes no longer have wires to hold the wings on.

I think some of the ones round here (White Waltham) still do, but those would be biplanes. If you want to go at 500mph, wires are probably a bit of a liability. I expect a 500mph yacht would do without standing rigging, too...

Mike.

 

[Keen_Ed]

As soon as you want to use a leading edge slat - aka a jib - you need a forestay. Then, you want the forestay to be straight - and the easiest way to do that is with a backstay. Now, you could just have those, but it's easier and cheaper to also keep the mast up side to side with some shrouds.

Other option is a una rig. Which limits sail area on the one mast = long boom = high mainsheet loads.

Or you could have a short boom, but this loses sail area. You could then have a longer mast to get the sail area back, but this means decreased stability & increased cost.

Also, backstays give the option of bending the mast, which help with sail shape control. Sailing is done between 1 and ?30? kts. In percentage change terms, huge compared to the range of speeds of a aircraft. It's nice to be able to bend the mast and adjust sail camber.

Shroudless rigs can be done, though. What't the cost of 2 carbon fibre masts compared to shrouds and a jib?

 

[andymcp]

I s'pose a mast has more forces is all sorts of directions to contend with, and those can be pretty brutal when you start hanging 3 or more sails off it. Those that have stayless masts (if I recall correctly) have one sail on the mast to contend with.

Also, wind speed seems to have something to do with it on more conventional rigs. When the Elan 210 came out it had no backstays and a huge roach on the main, but the version that came to the UK with our higher mean wind speeds was a bugger to get properly trimmed, so ones shipped here have a smaller main and a backstay added.

Before:


After:

 

[Woodlouse]

Cost and weight.

A wooden or aluminium free standing rig is going to be heavy. So carbon is preferred, but a free standing carbon rig will still weigh considerably more than a stayed carbon rig.

Plus unstayed rigs can bend. Stays are useful for keeping everything straight.

 

[Sybarite]

Ah, yes, looks like an Aerorig is what the boat I saw was sporting. Impressive, even if it hasn't been proven to be particularly viable!

The original aerorig received bad publicity over a court case where they botched a job. Instead of starting again they just added thickness to the mast with the result that it weighed twice as much as was originally intended. I believe it led to the demise of the company. However there are others.

In France they were tested. Two identical 42' boats, one conventionally rigged and the other aerorigged. IIRC, the aerorig, with a smaller sail area, outperformed the conventional rig on (all/most?) points of sailing and was much easier to handle.

Snowleopard has something similar on his cat. He could give a better POV.


Also there is :

http://www.yachtmonalisa.com/

It has an aerorig which is discussed in the site.

 

[uxb]

Is it just cost?

Probably... I think that to go unstayed your modern AWB would need a lot more structure in the hull so would cost more to build?

Also we are a conservative lot and having an Aero rig or similar would be a step out of the comfort zone of many of us..

 

[Sybarite]

Probably... I think that to go unstayed your modern AWB would need a lot more structure in the hull so would cost more to build?

Also we are a conservative lot and having an Aero rig or similar would be a step out of the comfort zone of many of us..

http://www.yachtmonalisa.com/Hiswa-AeroRig-Symposium.pdf

See p53 for the test with two Beneteau 42.7's.

And see what Tom Cunliffe says:

http://www.yachtlanovia.com/YMarticle.pdf