Why buy new?

[Nigelpickin]

I don't think I was missing any point, since my comparison was between two similar size boats, whose running costs would be in the same league - leaving aside the Benetti 40m, which I only mentioned to emphasize the reasoning, of course.

Mind, I accept that the older boat is likely to need some refitting and/or more extraordinary maintenance, but there's a helluva lot of room for that, with an almost tenfold price difference...!
In fact, you could probably customize the "old" boat even more than the new one.

All that aside, it's easy to see how an old SL82 withstood the time test: it's sufficient to have a look at one built some 20 years ago.
And if you never did, trust me, you'd be impressed.
Otoh, how well a brand new SL78 will withstand the next 20 years, that's anyone's guess, of course.
But assuming that both boats are properly looked after, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the 82, which would be 40yo by then, would be in a comparable shape (if not even better!), compared to the by then 20yo 78...

I’m willing to accept that I’m not making my point to a standard that is understandable but were it that I was, you would be in agreement

Point is that your ‘blowable amount’ and your available income come from different budget areas - so I can afford that SL and perhaps the new one, at a push, if we sold the kids - but I could not afford to run either of them without bankrupting my daily allowance.
So for example, we try to keep the cost of our habit go around £25k per year*, (not including depreciation), and we had anything from 0 to 1m€ available for our ‘round the world’ boat, so we could have got the 52’ version nearly new and would have loved to have done so - but we couldn’t affford to run it - based on our budget.

So we bought the best example of a 45’ version - which happens to be new and affordable to run, for us.

So I guess - based on my line of thinking - there’s going to be more distressed stock and thus more depreciation at the longer end of the market - no? And I’d ask again, how many folk who can afford to run an 80’ SL would really want a 10’yrar old model? It must be a tough sell surely?

*never managed to keep within budget but that’s the figure Ann says we can spend - I might have to break out the Rohypnol when she sees what I’m planning to spend when we arrive in Miami..

And in line with some other comments, is cost to change New to New really that much more than Used to Used? I’d be interested to see some real life numbers from others for me circa 1.8m expenditure on new boats has cost around 200k in the exchange process, over 10 years - so as a percentage that’s not too shocking?

Ultimarely I kind of think that the ‘I never buy new’ and ‘I never buy old’ stand points enjoy a lot less logic than the ‘I never buy boats’ one.

 

[MapisM]

Just out of interest who would do that kind of work in the Med? I dont think I'd need to relocate the galley so much as to open it up to the saloon. Star fins would be a definite but actually I think I'd give a hard top and hi/lo platform a miss or at least not do it straightaway. I like the idea of keeping the tender up top out of the way and I'm not sure a hard top would suit the SL72 design

I can think of a couple of yards in Veneto/Friuli area which would be capable of doing just about any refitting you can think of.
But I was also told from a source which I trust of a good one in Sicily (believe it or not), and I'm sure that there must be a pretty wide choice in Viareggio area.
Coming to think of it, also the one near CF which you already know could do that sort of job.
No clue about Sof, but being an area packed with a lot of big boats, I'd expect that there must be also some decent yards...

All depends also on where you find the boat, obviously.
I refitted my DP in N Adriatic because, on top of being able to exploit the specific knowledge of the builder and of some folks who used to work for him, quite simply she was there, to start with.

Ref HT and hi/lo platform, I'm sure that both would be a great upgrade for an SL72, because the radar arch is perfectly positioned to be used as the rear "pillar" of the HT, without affecting the crane operation. And also extending the smallish integrated platform would be an easy job, considering its very regular, only slightly rounded profile.

Just have a look at the pics in this ad, for instance.
While I would have used a different technique/style for the HT, you can see that it's a very nice upgrade indeed, for that boat.
And also the pics of the stern show what I meant ref. the platform shape, nicely suited for an extended hi/lo platform... :encouragement:

 

[MapisM]

I kind of think that the ‘I never buy new’ and ‘I never buy old’ stand points enjoy a lot less logic than the ‘I never buy boats’ one.

Amen to that!

 

[Bouba]

It’s the same in the car market, you can buy very large high end used cars for next to nothing. Because they fall between two markets, the wealthy who are driven around in limousines want new. And your average Joe wants something that is affordable to run.
There is a small middle ground and in the boat world that would be us. Those that appreciate a project

 

[markc]

It’s the same in the car market, you can buy very large high end used cars for next to nothing. Because they fall between two markets, the wealthy who are driven around in limousines want new. And your average Joe wants something that is affordable to run.
There is a small middle ground and in the boat world that would be us. Those that appreciate a project

+1 to that! I take the view, both with cars & boats that whether you buy new or used, in a year from your purchase you have a used boat / car, but more cash in the bank if you started with used. This makes sense to me because I'm not that fussed about the new boat smell and as other have said, from day 1 the deterioration starts and it will never be as good as day 1. OTTH if you buy used you have the opportunity to make improvements to your 'investment' ... that's my version of man maths, all other versions are also totally acceptable.

 

[MapisM]

that's my version of man maths, all other versions are also totally acceptable.

Very true. But there are other things which aren't so subjective, like the historical increase of corner cutting in the build of pleasure boats, which arguably started already back in the days when the construction shifted from wood to plastic, but became more noticeable from the early 90s onward, and went progressively downhill from there - with zero signs of reversal of this trend, so far.

Take your fine vessel, for instance: she's among the last non-custom boats that Ferretti built to Malta Cross specs, under Bureau Veritas certification - if you missed it, you might be interested to have a look at this old thread, which was specifically inspired by a F165.
You don't see that in new builds anymore, unless going for MUCH larger stuff, ask specifically for such certification, and more than likely fork out some more money, on top of an already outrageous price... :ambivalence:

 

[markc]

Thanks P, every day's a school day!

 

[Murphys_Law]

I think the key point, assuming that people are actually buying new boats, is that second hand boats are sold for what people are prepared to pay.

As a broker/owner I would be asking why 2nd values were so low!

 

[BruceK]

I am tempted (very) at boat shows especially new Princess boats
however the new Princess 43 (my perfect boat really) is so beautiful and exquisitely made I wouldn't want to take it outside let alone do anything as nasty with it as leave it in seawater. I keep looking at boat shows but I dare not touch anything. One misplaced fender coming alongside and I think the shock/disapointment/anger would probably kill me if I put a divet in the gelcoat.

Even the nearly new Princess 42s are still too lovely. So I shall wait until a nicely scuffed up example comes along then I won't feel bad about getting a few oily marks on the carpet, dog hair on the sofas and not feeling at all guilty about not polishing it very often (well at all really ).

Actually you make a very good point AFAIC. My boat is very much a family boat, it's old but she's a goer. I very quickly found after getting her that being obsessive about it with the kids and dogs and and that very quickly I wasn't enjoying her and nor was the family as much as we should be doing. I still am obsessive about maintenance but have learnt to be more relaxed about the state the dogs and kids leave after themselves. I was surprised to find myself only slightly put out to find ink stains on brand new vinyls that had just cost me 4.5k to replace courtesy of my 9 y/o daughter leaving her drawing pens out for 11 y/o brother to sit on. I find we are far more adventurous in her than my peers with boats several times the value. And whereas I may look at some of the new boats with appreciation I just cant see what so much extra cost will actually bring to the table. It wont change my boating habits and all it can offer is perhaps more pride of ownership but if I am to be absolutely honest, as good a feeling as pride of ownership is it's actually a very fragile concept and very short lived.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

And in line with some other comments, is cost to change New to New really that much more than Used to Used? I’d be interested to see some real life numbers from others for me circa 1.8m expenditure on new boats has cost around 200k in the exchange process, over 10 years - so as a percentage that’s not too shocking?

To give you some idea of what depreciation can be, I know what the first owner of my boat paid for it new and I also happen to know what he traded it in for and he lost about €1.5m. OK he bought it in 2006 when the market was buoyant and sold it in 2013 when the market was depressed and I also dont know what level of discount he got on his new boat to compensate for that but either way he lost a shedload of money. In contrast I will probably lose somewhere between 0 and €100k when I sell the boat but then I have benefited from the fact that the market has turned up since 2014 when I bought it and I have also fitted a gyro. This is only one example but I think it illustrates the difference between New to New and Used to Used

 

[Bouba]

Actually you make a very good point AFAIC. My boat is very much a family boat, it's old but she's a goer. I very quickly found after getting her that being obsessive about it with the kids and dogs and and that very quickly I wasn't enjoying her and nor was the family as much as we should be doing. I still am obsessive about maintenance but have learnt to be more relaxed about the state the dogs and kids leave after themselves. I was surprised to find myself only slightly put out to find ink stains on brand new vinyls that had just cost me 4.5k to replace courtesy of my 9 y/o daughter leaving her drawing pens out for 11 y/o brother to sit on. I find we are far more adventurous in her than my peers with boats several times the value. And whereas I may look at some of the new boats with appreciation I just cant see what so much extra cost will actually bring to the table. It wont change my boating habits and all it can offer is perhaps more pride of ownership but if I am to be absolutely honest, as good a feeling as pride of ownership is it's actually a very fragile concept and very short lived.

+1 what the dog does still upsets me but I’ve learned to accept it, and after two years I’m ready to have the conversation about whether we should use the oven:ambivalence:

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

While I would have used a different technique/style for the HT, you can see that it's a very nice upgrade indeed, for that boat.
And also the pics of the stern show what I meant ref. the platform shape, nicely suited for an extended hi/lo platform... :encouragement:

Mmm not sure I agree about the HT suiting the style of the boat. IIRC later SL72s have hydraulically folding biminis so I think I'd be happy with that. But maybe youre right on the hi/lo platform. Moving the tender from the flybridge would free up some more space on what is quite a small flybridge for the size of boat

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

+1 what the dog does still upsets me but I’ve learned to accept it, and after two years I’m ready to have the conversation about whether we should use the oven:ambivalence:

Next year I'm looking forward to bringing my dog on your boat

 

[petem]

+1 what the dog does still upsets me but I’ve learned to accept it, and after two years I’m ready to have the conversation about whether we should use the oven:ambivalence:

Use the oven? As MapisM would say, 'over my dead body'!

 

[Bouba]

Next year I'm looking forward to bringing my dog on your boat

We’re actually looking forward to meeting him

 

[Nigelpickin]

To give you some idea of what depreciation can be, I know what the first owner of my boat paid for it new and I also happen to know what he traded it in for and he lost about €1.5m. OK he bought it in 2006 when the market was buoyant and sold it in 2013 when the market was depressed and I also dont know what level of discount he got on his new boat to compensate for that but either way he lost a shedload of money. In contrast I will probably lose somewhere between 0 and €100k when I sell the boat but then I have benefited from the fact that the market has turned up since 2014 when I bought it and I have also fitted a gyro. This is only one example but I think it illustrates the difference between New to New and Used to Used

Ouch! Very different to our journey but shows how hard the market can sting you if the timing is off...

 

[vas]

Use the oven? As MapisM would say, 'over my dead body'!

the discussion on why buying a new boat is becoming surreal, but I'll bite

what's wrong with actually USING the oven Bouba?
especially if it's a gas one (like mine) which actually cooks tastier food compared to el. ovens (and you don't need the geny running...)

V.

PS. and to be on topic unless I sell the house and the kids I wont be getting a new boat in this life (and I don't mind tbh) In maybe a dozen years I'd consider getting a saily thing with salon at deck level, not found many, maybe a Moody DS45, but it has to be cheap. Not holding my breath (yet)!

 

[Bouba]

the discussion on why buying a new boat is becoming surreal, but I'll bite

what's wrong with actually USING the oven Bouba?
especially if it's a gas one (like mine) which actually cooks tastier food compared to el. ovens (and you don't need the geny running...)

V.

It is gas. Truth is I’ll do anything to avoid cooking and it looks so nice when it’s clean and new.
It’s 8:49 am and dead calm, I’m off to the Porquerolles for one night. Best time of the year