Why are YBW article-downloads so damned expensive??

[maxi77]

Spare parts are sold at a very healthy margin, opportunity cost is good profit.

So it's ok for navionics or imray to sell map data for a large markup but not IPC? The sale of intellectual property may not live on a shelf, But it still has a cost, and a company still has to make a profit to satisfy its shareholders. You may not agree with the way it chooses to commercial operate, but thats upto them. You can vote with your feet!

Playing devils advocate...

But both Imray and Navionics sell their electronic charts for far less than the paper ones would cost, VAT or no VAT. And you can now buy all the UK charts as made by Droggy for some £60 from various resellers, that would get you 3 paper charts.

I am not saying intelectual property is free, but there is a difference in the cost to the supplier between hard and soft copy, most these days pass that difference on to the customer.

Most companies are finding customers hard to retain and harder to win, and a lost customer is the hardest of all to win back. I would have paid a decent price for the electronic sub and do subscribe to other publications, but I am not paying a premium. I think you may find I am not unique.

 

[maxi77]

Nearly all - perhaps all - academic publishers give you a VAST discount if you a are happy with electronic only subscriptions to journals. However, these are VERY low volume publications.

They may well though gross more with their cheap electronic subs than they ever did with the hard copy.

 

[Otter]

A search on YBW has often brought up old articles that I would have bought for about £1.50 but no way at £2 plus, never mind £6 or £7. I liken it to buying a track in iTunes for 99p being a whim purchase but to buy a whole album you have to know its exactly what you want. I'm not paying that for three pages of scanned PDF.

 

[dunedin]

The reply that IPC meant to supply ? ..............

"Thanks everybody for your suggestion re the digital copies of old articles.
And it is great that many of you would like to make more use of this service, if we can find a way to move the price point.

We will need to look into this in more detail (eg current volumes, costs and any contract breakpoints) but will do so and come back on this forum and in the magazine in a few weeks

Enjoy your boating"

(not quite the way the actual posts were made)

 

[Greenheart]

...£7... I liken it to buying a track in iTunes for 99p being a whim purchase but to buy a whole album you have to know its exactly what you want. I'm not paying that for three pages of scanned PDF.

That seems to be everyone's thinking, here...

...hence the question echoes, unanswered. Is it really remotely possible that there are actually hordes of very discreet, wealthy spendthrifts out there, easily substantiating IPC's pricing policy, but meanwhile never uttering a murmur in support of the £6.95 valuation?

Isn't this what is called a "no-brainer"? IPC have control of something we'd all pay a reasonable fee to access...but they refuse to make it available for anything like that reasonable fee. Who wins, there?

 

[Me_has_a_Boat]

Spare parts are sold at a very healthy margin, opportunity cost is good profit.

So it's ok for navionics or imray to sell map data for a large markup but not IPC? The sale of intellectual property may not live on a shelf, But it still has a cost, and a company still has to make a profit to satisfy its shareholders. You may not agree with the way it chooses to commercial operate, but thats upto them. You can vote with your feet!

Playing devils advocate...

I don't think anyone is saying that IPC should not make a profit (and probably only a few think it should be a "fair" profit - whatever da f#ck that means ). Personally I would be very happy for IPC if they made squillions from the copies of old articles.

For me at least the point is that the current model (£7 for a photocopy) is not only unsustainable but actually harms the future for the rest of the Magazine(s). IMO even the Poundworld model for existing photocopies will not be a forever thing (as both business competitors and "volunteers" provide ever more free to view content online. most of which will have been written within living memory ).....I see the 99p download as an interim stage that at least stops IPC shooting selves in the foot in the medium term.....even if it does not make more (easily identifiable) money IMO a price worth paying .

Anyway, for me this horse has been flogged enough.......others will likely disagree with that sentiment



Well, apart from...........

.........just in case RS is looking for any tips on handling punters online (and the non-involved, both posting and not) have a look at the posts from ruaridhmaccallum and Jonic in the broker or not thread:-

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=328424

 

[AntarcticPilot]

They may well though gross more with their cheap electronic subs than they ever did with the hard copy.

Of course, there are commercial journals (those by Springer-Verlag come to mind), but the vast majority are non-profit.

 

[prv]

Not all publishers charge more for their digital subs, I have just looked at the New Statesman package, and for digital they chage £50 a year, if you want paper it is £87 and if you buy at the newsagent it is £187, so there is a real benefit in both subscribing and going digital so it can be done.
.

You seem to be talking about digital subscription to the whole magazine. I don't think anyone else is. In fact, I may be wrong but I think if you have a paper subscription you can already read the digital editions on an iPad for free.

This is about individual old articles, like reviews of particular boat models, or how to make a heat exchanger out of drainpipe and knicker elastic, or the revolutionary new technology that we now know was a flop (inflatable in-hull airbags seemed like the future at one point). They come up in searches and might be worth reading, but not at the price offered.

Pete

 

[maxi77]

You seem to be talking about digital subscription to the whole magazine. I don't think anyone else is. In fact, I may be wrong but I think if you have a paper subscription you can already read the digital editions on an iPad for free.

This is about individual old articles, like reviews of particular boat models, or how to make a heat exchanger out of drainpipe and knicker elastic, or the revolutionary new technology that we now know was a flop (inflatable in-hull airbags seemed like the future at one point). They come up in searches and might be worth reading, but not at the price offered.

Pete

The situation with the elctronic subs is just the same as it is with article downloads, they actually charge more if you only subscribe electronically, I would not want the paper one being overseas, so the suggestion buy the paper and get electronic free is a non starter.

I have also commented on the article download situation and pointed out I can download similar things for a lot less than IPC think is the going rate.

The really annoying thing is that every time this type of comment is raised by forum members the IPC response tends to insult our intelligence

 

[Greenheart]

I was Googling 'Westerly Nimrod', and up comes a lawyer describing the way people who are desperate for legal advice will pay amounts high above what the solicitor's service would ordinarily cost, to get the information immediately, online...

...he cites the £6.95 boating back-issues as an instance of the increased value of instant info, not requiring a professional to give an opinion in person...but I think this example makes our point for us...we're not desperate, in the way persons with legal worries are.

It's worth a quick read: http://peninsulawyer.com/2010/7/21/lawyers-boats-and-paywalls.html

Meanwhile I'm still Googling for Westerly Nimrod information...

 

[Terra-Loon]

I am curious about this.

I have a machine that can scan a double page spread every 10 seconds and it's not a very quick one.
So that's about 10 minutes an issue.
That's 2 hours work to scan a years Yachting Monthly.
Say 3 years in one day including coffee breaks, file formatting, lunch and potty breaks.
So two students on minimum wage could do 30 years of scanning in a week.

A bright young thing could index every significant article and set up an automatic web shop in about another week.

You could subcontract the whole thing and have it making money in a matter of weeks.

This is clearly not about economics. It's probably more likely to be about royalties to freelance journos, photographers etc. Thats what I was told by one of the other sailing rags when I queried them on the same topic.

The bottom line is that if you want an article right now it is easier and quicker to ask on this forum if anyone has it. Yo can then just borrow it without breaking any rules.

Missed commercial opportunity, but IPC are renowned for that.

I'll write you a program that batch edits and saves each image, compiling it into a pdf as it goes.

I think you're a little optimistic on the output though, my experience is that these things take about twice as long as the estimate.

 

[Searush]

Just come across this thread & spent a fair chunk of my remaining lifespan reading it.

The initial post & points were sound & IMHO, Richard has recognised them, he has also hinted that IPC will be setting something up in the future that would meet the demands made.

Reading between the lines, as he suggested, I would expect that solution to be perhaps App based & downloadable direct to any device you happen to access the net with & using the usual Paypal/ mobile charging techniques & probably priced at around the price suggested initially.

But, it isn't just "our" magazines, but all in the IPC stable that are affected & that may take time to set up, with suitable database, allocation of revenue streams & costs.

Please don't shoot the messenger, Richard is the one sensible point of access into IPC that we have & who pays attention to what we say. He also takes action to sort out problems for us. I understand the frustration, but knocking Richard is just counter productive, these fora need his input.

 

[oldbilbo]

Just come across this thread & spent a fair chunk of my remaining lifespan reading it.

Please don't shoot the messenger, Richard is the one sensible point of access into IPC that we have & who pays attention to what we say. He also takes action to sort out problems for us. I understand the frustration, but knocking Richard is just counter productive, these fora need his input.

Yus.

And he offers the occasional beer/coffee/commiseration... can't be all bad!

 

[prv]

I think you're a little optimistic on the output though, my experience is that these things take about twice as long as the estimate.

Not at all - see the other posts about automated bulk scanning machines. He was assuming a flatbed scanner, so in reality, using the right machine, it would take vastly less time.

Pete

 

[A1Sailor]

Just come across this thread & spent a fair chunk of my remaining lifespan reading it.

...............

Please don't shoot the messenger, Richard is the one sensible point of access into IPC that we have & who pays attention to what we say. He also takes action to sort out problems for us. I understand the frustration, but knocking Richard is just counter productive, these fora need his input.

Me too. Fascinating the number of times Richard said "goodnight" then returned later in the evening to join in the fun again. He must have one of these clever EyePhone thingies that can see and read even though he's asleep - and give sensible EyePC approved answers too!

 

[northwind]

Not at all - see the other posts about automated bulk scanning machines. He was assuming a flatbed scanner, so in reality, using the right machine, it would take vastly less time.

Pete

Just the small point of illegally selling someone else's copyright material to overcome then!!

It's really not about the method of being able to digitise the content, purely economics.. I.e. people not wanting to spend a few quid researching their prospective purchase of several thousands....

Of course you could setup a site and get everyone to write a review of their boat, and use a create commons license on the content..

 

[prv]

Just the small point of illegally selling someone else's copyright material to overcome then!!

Eh?

What on earth are you on about?

The original post that sparked the sideline about how long it would take to scan was trying to estimate what the cost to IPC would have been for the digitisation they've already done. That estimate was based on paying a couple of students to operate a domestic flatbed scanner.

I pointed out that nobody would actually do it like that, and they'll have outsourced to a company that runs things like this.

That was all in the first time this thread was on the front page.

Then Dan resurrected it

Then someone else came along and made another erroneous estimate about scanning times, once more assuming that bulk scanning is done the same way as domestic scanning, and I once more corrected the misconception.

To be honest, the whole subthread is somewhat irrelevant; IPC have already done the scanning of their pre-digital-publishing back catalogue, it's a sunk cost.

That's what we were talking about. What were you talking about? And who do you think is illegally breaching whose copyright?

Pete

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

I'll write you a program that batch edits and saves each image, compiling it into a pdf as it goes.

I think you're a little optimistic on the output though, my experience is that these things take about twice as long as the estimate.

also, in fairness to IPC, the problem isn't scanning the artices... its indexing them all, so that you can find them!... thats a bigger job.... but still not a showstopper....

the pricing is ridiculous... i'd buy them regularly at a more sensible price.

 

[northwind]

Eh?

What on earth are you on about?

The original post that sparked the sideline about how long it would take to scan was trying to estimate what the cost to IPC would have been for the digitisation they've already done. That estimate was based on paying a couple of students to operate a domestic flatbed scanner.

I pointed out that nobody would actually do it like that, and they'll have outsourced to a company that runs things like this.

That was all in the first time this thread was on the front page.

Then Dan resurrected it

Then someone else came along and made another erroneous estimate about scanning times, once more assuming that bulk scanning is done the same way as domestic scanning, and I once more corrected the misconception.

To be honest, the whole subthread is somewhat irrelevant; IPC have already done the scanning of their pre-digital-publishing back catalogue, it's a sunk cost.

That's what we were talking about. What were you talking about? And who do you think is illegally breaching whose copyright?

Pete

Calm down dear...

The first post in the thread is a complaint to IPC regarding the cost of their article downloads.

I was mearly making the point that the ability to scan the articles is only one part of the equation, yes there are lots of ways of doing it, however the original issue is was with the cost of the download. I was making the point that yes anyone could scan them, however if someone were to sell them or publish them online it would be breaching copyright.

It's not a direct acusation aimed at anyone!

Ultimately as with any electronic medium it's upto the owner to decide how they monetize their IP.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Eh?

What on earth are you on about?

SNIP

That's what we were talking about. What were you talking about? And who do you think is illegally breaching whose copyright?

Pete

Well, there's the author's copyright and the photographer's copyright, which may not belong to IPC in all cases. IPC may have bought one-off reproduction rights, especially for library photographs, which would have seemed quite sensible before electronic publishing came along. And other photographs and diagrams (e.g. accommodation plans, rigging plans) will be copyright the boat-builder, and reproduced by permission which may not extend to electronic forms. You'll often see copyright notices or credits next to photos or diagrams; for example, British Antarctic Survey retains copyright on images used by the BBC.

The real problem on the intellectual property rights front is that for many articles the ownership will be fragmented, and in some cases the copyright owners may not be traceable. However, as copyright has a very long life-span (70 years minimum), IPC would at least have to be shown to have done due diligence in attempting to trace the copyright owners, which may include searching out executors or heirs of contributors, successor companies, administrators or whatever, Frankly, in some cases I'd say it simply wasn't worth-while.