Why are these sytems not more popular? (long post)

Sybarite

Well-Known Member
Joined
7 Dec 2002
Messages
27,781
Location
France
Visit site
The following are three systems which I believe would considerably improve cruising comfort and I am surprised that they are not more widespread. (The descriptions are by interested parties.)

AERORIG

The Aerorig is made up of a mast, a main boom and a fore-boom. The booms are rigidly fixed to the mast. The mast is totally unstayed and is mounted in two bearings - one in the bottom of the hull and one in the deck. These allow the mast - and therefore the whole rig -- to rotate freely. The jib is completely self - tacking on a traveller mounted on the mast.

As long as more sail is set behind the mast than in front of it, the Aerorig will weathercock into wind if left to its own devices. The whole rig can therefore be controlled and the sail angle set by restricting the angle of rotation using a single mainsheet.

This is amazingly easy to manage and trim compared with a conventional rig. Furthermore, the mainsheet loading is only about one third of that on an equivalent stayed rig because the rotational force of the jib offsets that of the mainsail - hence a "balanced" rig.

The Aerorig offers these advantages -:

shorthanded passage making easy
one only control line and low sheet loads - one (smaller) winch.
no standing rigging to maintain
visibility and space on deck are improved,
sailing on a dead without risk of jibing
jibing an Aerorig is easy,
short tacking to windward effortless
save cost of winches and rigging (although aerorig mast is more expensive.)

An independent test was performed by the Woolfson Institute using two Bénéteau 42.7's, one rigged conventionally (93 m²), and one with an Aerorig (78m²). The latter developed more power on all points of sailing - from 10 – 30% more. With the Aerorig 28% of the Centre of Gravity was above the waterline compared with 48% for the conventional rig.

Unfortunately the Aerorig image was tarnished because of a case which received a lot of coverage at the time. A structural fault was detected and, rather than scrap the spar, additional layers were added to strengthen it, resulting in a rig that was twice as heavy as it should have been.


The twistle rig for downwind sailing

(If an Aerorig isn’t considered)

The twistle rig consists of two lightweight poles and a universal joint supported by an up haul from the mast and downhaul to the stem head. The only control necessary for the twin sails is the two sheets. As the two poles are not attached to the mast but are allowed to float with the movement of the yacht this reduces the normal rolling associated with running down wind.

The twistle sails recommended are: -
1. Two sails of 130% hoisted in a twin groove furling system.
2. Twins sail joined at luff and hoisted in single groove furling system.
3. The twin’s sail made of lightweight spinnaker cloth tacked to a furling drum and head swivel independent of existing sails.

To stow
1 Release both sheets and the up-haul supporting the U/V joint.
2 Furl in the sail while running down wind.
3 When all is calm stow the twistle yards and lower the sail.

Advantages
Greatly reduces the rolling.
Reduces the stress on crew and yacht.
Easy to hoist and stow.
No sail chafe.
No collapsing in light airs.
No wrapping around forestay.
Reduces the load on the helm, saving power from battery.
May safely be used at night as one person can furl the twins from the safety of the cockpit”


Dutchman

In the 80’s Bénéteau was proposing these as standard; I wonder why the idea was subsequently dropped?

“The Dutchman Sail Flaking System uses vertical control lines laced through fairleads in the sail. The lines are attached to the topping lift and at the base of the sail, and don’t move.

The sail slides up and down on the lines like a Roman shade. As you drop the sail, the lines guide the main down to alternate sides of the boom. A few seconds straightening, and you’re done. One person can perfectly flake pretty much any size sail in under 20 seconds. Many owners don’t even bother with sail ties.

Offshore sailors particularly like how easy it makes reefing. The system collects the sail on the boom with no need to tie in the intermediate reef points. If you lines are led aft, you can reef entirely from the cockpit.

The "Dutchman" works with conventional or full-batten sails, and can be easily retrofitted to an existing main.

The Dutchman System has the following advantages over lazy jacks:

The sail can’t get caught on the Dutchman lines is it is raised or lowered. Lazy jacks catch all the time. Lazy jacks were developed for gaff or junk rigs, which the Dutchman can't work with. With such rigs, the leech is always behind the jack lines, so they never catch the sail. Many people find it annoying that lazy jacks always catch the leech as you raise and lower a modern sail, even if you're head to wind. Imagine hoisting the sail between a web of lines about one foot apart, with the leech moving back and forth. No wonder it catches.

There’s no need to head into the wind to raise, lower, or reef the sail. Just let the sail luff. The Dutchman lines pass through the fairleads in the sail every 2 to 3 feet, so they can’t chafe the sail.

The Dutchman tabs automatically slacken the control lines after the sail is raised. Adjust it once and you’re done. Lazy jacks have to be adjusted or moved forward and back every time you raise and lower the sail.

More importantly, the Dutchman works better with today's stiffer sails. Lazy jacks were fine with the soft sails of 30 years ago that you rolled up, but do not offer enough space between the lines to make nice, big, loose folds with today's stiffer sail fabrics.

The Dutchman is inconspicuous, with no noise, chafe, catching or performance loss. Your sail lasts longer, and it’s only about $200-$300 over the cost of lazy jacks. Not a bad deal. And probably why, after more than 14 years and 20,000 systems, it’s the number one system and growing.

Performance loss is par with adding a flag halyard. The control lines are about 2mm (1/16th inch) in diameter, and the “hole” in the sail is really a vertical slit just wide enough for the control line to pass through.

As the sail is dropped, the Dutchman control lines automatically organize the main onto either side of the boom. Spend a few seconds straightening the sail, and you've got a perfectly flaked main. When you raise the sail, the Dutchman tabs sewn to the base of the sail stand up, lessening the control lines. When the sail is dropped, it pushes down on the tabs, tightening the control lines. There’s no adjusting needed, unlike lazy jacks, which need a lot of messing with.

Use normal slab or jiffy reefing. However, since the Dutchman holds the sail on the boom, you don’t need to tie off the intermediate reef points (the ones in the middle of the sail). Many owners, especially those who sail offshore, comment on how much easier this makes the reefing. Of course, it helps that the sail is not flogging itself all over the deck!”

John
 
1. Aerorig requires considerable engineering to get into a boat. Not cheap, not easy. And almost best if the boat is designed for the rig.

2. The Twistle seems to be gaining ground for those anticipating long downhill passages.

3. The Dutchman is not uncommon, but as furling mains continue to increase in popularity, it has a shrinking original market to aim at.
 
1) Absolutely, it is not for retrofitting.
3) I would have thought that slab reefing was gaining in popularity because it is normally more efficient than a reefing main. Also a combination of slab reefing and Dutchman is an awful lot cheaper than a furling system without the inherent risk of jamming a furling sail.

John
 
aerorig power

aerorig power is hard to tame, that's what happens when an aerorig boat loses her steering

P1060062.jpg
 
Dutchman system

We rafted onto a Dutch HR last summer with an immaculately flaked main. We complimented the skipper and he showed us the Dutchman system. I asked him about chafe on the sail - no problem, apparently, and about raising/lowering the sail and friction - no problem either. Next day he sailed past us - we couldn't see the lines - it certainly didn't affect sail shape. We were very impressed. I am not clear how you fit a sail cover, though.
 
Dutchman

I remember being very keen on the Dutchman system, but for a few lengths of cord and some eyelets in the sail it was over expensive. When we changed boats more recently I could no longer find it available in this country.
 
My Dad's old boat came with a Dutchman system. It worked, but it's not as completely snag free as you claimed.

It did catch the leach (esp with full batterns) on the topping lift, as due to the dutchman lines it had to go a prescribed side of the topping lift. It did chafe the sail, not overly, but noticeably, and it did have one major downside compared to lazyjacks.

Which is that when you dropped the sail it was not completely tamed, and still required a crew member or two to go forward and put sailties round it, and certainly did take more than the 20s you claim. And it still required a separate, split, sailcover. With lazyjacks and a stackpack the sail falls into the bag and is tamed so you can forget about it until you're alongside, then sort it out at your leisure.
I also disagree with your statement "Offshore sailors particularly like how easy it makes reefing. The system collects the sail on the boom with no need to tie in the intermediate reef points. If you lines are led aft, you can reef entirely from the cockpit." as being any different from the situation with lazyjacks. Both systems had this bonus, with the Dutchman having the disadvantage that when you reefed the Dutchman lines tended to load up, putting load on the topping lift.

After a couple of seasons he took it off and replaced it with a lazyjack system. Which, with the magic of bungee, was made self adjusting.

Neither system was perfect, but the lazyjacks worked better.
 
I had a Dutchman system fitted to a Roberts 370 I purchased. It was no better nor no worse than a decent lazyjack system. I couldn't see the advantage really of one over the other. The main problem with dropping a mainsail neatly is more to do with the luff slide friction or snagging, at least that's been my experience, provided the drop is smooth, a decent sailcatching system will do equally well as a Dutchman system.

In my opinion.

Cheers, Brian.
 
(From their site)

Most owners modify their existing cover by adding vertical zippers that run up one side. The C System eliminates the need for zippered slits. Or use a sailcover which is split along the top, and fastened to either side of the boom. Unroll and snap each half to the control line, then use Velcro to fasten together. Be sure your sailcover fits loosely. A tight cover will make sharp creases, which will shorten your sail’s life.
 
A high performance conventional rig will be lighter than an aerorig. Having bearings and the added structure required to make the rig freestanding also means an increase in weight as well as windage. I shouldn't think it makes flying spinnakers particularly easy either.
 
A high performance conventional rig will be lighter than an aerorig. Having bearings and the added structure required to make the rig freestanding also means an increase in weight as well as windage. I shouldn't think it makes flying spinnakers particularly easy either.

Never sailed an aerorig, but the thing that always occurred to me about them was the lack of flexibility over what sails were set, it seemed to be almost impossible to fly the jib without the main. Not sure I'd want to give that up.
 
Sailing boats need to have that "look back" factor - having to look back and admire it as you row away. The Aerorig is way tto ugly to be considered in my book. It's almost as bad as those French multijulls with the tank turret on top
 
Think you have probably answered your own questions!

The Aerorig is complicated to make and expensive. Only people with deep pockets could commission a boat to use it. Therefore many of the boats were not "mainstream". And the original manufacturer went bust. So a bit of a blind alley.

The twistle rig has its adherents amongst those that do long distance, short hand downwind sailing - hardly the biggest sector of the market.

The Dutchman seems to have little advantage over lazyjacks and stackpack to justify the additional cost. The dominance of furling mains in the volume production market and the developments in slab reefing means the mass market is not there.

You could add in-boom reefing, self tacking headsails and no doubt many other developments to your list, all of which have their supporters, but at the end of the day it is the market that determines what is successful!
 
It's not a rig for spinnakers; as a cruiser that's one of the attractions. You simply square off the rig.

The independent tests showed that the aerorig was inherently faster except at less than 40° to the apparent wind.

John
 
"The Aerorig is complicated to make and expensive. Only people with deep pockets could commission a boat to use it. Therefore many of the boats were not "mainstream". And the original manufacturer went bust. So a bit of a blind alley."

I understand that it was the court case that killed the company off relatively early in its existence. Most comments from owners are very flattering. A boat would need to be designed for the aerorig and whereas the mast was estimated to be about 25% more than a conventional mast and boom, savings could be made on the standing rigging, spinnaker and winches. Therefore the final cost difference (providing the boat was not retrofitted) was not that much different. Cost is very much a chicken and egg situation. If enough could be produced costs would fall. Although Carbospars went bust I believe aerorigs (or a close copy) are still being supplied and so the concept must live on somewhere.

"The twistle rig has its adherents amongst those that do long distance, short hand downwind sailing - hardly the biggest sector of the market."


My family doesn't like using the spinnaker and so I would be interested without necessarily wanting to cross an ocean.


I certainly don't see a dominance of mainsail furling systems in the volume market and their price is in a whole different ballpark. I would compare it with lazy jacks with the added advantage that I believe a Dutchman would work better with normal length sail battens and therefore would probably be a more viable option for converting your existing system. The market just hasn't quite caught up yet....

John
 
A boat would need to be designed for the aerorig and whereas the mast was estimated to be about 25% more than a conventional mast and boom, savings could be made on the standing rigging, spinnaker and winches. Therefore the final cost difference (providing the boat was not retrofitted) was not that much different. Cost is very much a chicken and egg situation. If enough could be produced costs would fall. Although Carbospars went bust I believe aerorigs (or a close copy) are still being supplied and so the concept must live on somewhere.

They were VERY much more expensive than a conventional rig. I was quoted 35,000 by Carbospars for a rig for a 40 footer. There are some offsets - no chainplates, headsail sheet gear, only 2 sails but still pricey.

A boat built for a conventional rig can be converted. The stresses on the hull are surprisingly low.

The sailing performance is as good as a conventional rig to windward but LOADS better on a reach or running. The biggest advantage is in ease of handling: self-tacking, one-rope control, de-power on any point of sailing and best of all - reef while heading downwind.

Price is certainly a drawback but the biggest factor preventing wider takeup is conservatism. There are various rationalisations -

-A boat with an unusual rig might be hard to sell.
-I don't want to risk all that money on an experiment
-If it was any good there would be more of them
-The guys at the club would take the p***
-Any fool can see an unsupported structure can't be strong enough.
-There must be huge stresses on the hull.

Mine is a variant on the Aerorig, the difference being that the mast is an independently-rotating aerofoil which improves efficiency. After 9 years and 17,000 miles I wouldn't want to go back to a stayed rig.

The twistle rig is popular with voyagers who spend days or weeks with the wind dead aft. Once you bring the wind 30° off the stern, all the gear needs to be dismantled which is more effort than dropping a spinnaker. In the course of a season's coastal cruising, how long do you spend with the wind dead aft?

I haven't come across the 'dutchman' - any links?
 
Aerorig costs the builder a lot more than a standard set up and requires re engineering th eboat structure. For one offs its more practical.

Twistle, I've used twin luffs to furl two large genoas for trade wind passages and the work well, furl quickly, easily, ned no more kit than comes with most boats. Twistle needs extra bits and we naver had any issues with rolling badly. Last trip was a windy crossing in January. Furling two sails menat we could quickly turn and go upwind with one sail inside the other if needed, just release the pole side sheet and head up leaving the pole in place.

Dutchman, I've sailed with this system, it works but no better than a standard and simpler stack pack and lazy jacks, which are easier to repair/replace on route. The Dutchman I used was cutting the sail where the gromets had worn out, which needed re threading th elines and putting new gromets where they go through the sail.
 
Last edited:
Top