Why are Ketch/Yawls more numerous than Schooners ?

[Mik_Mohr]

Hi all,

I am a newbie to all this, but I have always loved being afloat. My recent post martial freedom has allowed me to explore this further. I am keen that as soon as I have finished providing for my children, I can cast off and see the world again. Being a methodical fellow as most aircrew are (non methodical ones do not tend to last long!), I have been reading up on the subject. I understand that Ketch/Yawl type rigs are favoured for short handed cruising because the sail area is effectively divided into 3-4 sails rather than 2 larger sails on a sloop. This makes them easier to handle.

My question is why do I seem to see many more Ketch rigged boats than Schooner rigs, even though they would appear to achieve the same effect? I am aware that on a broad reach or run the rearward sail tends to blank the forward one from the wind, is this the reason?

Thanks in advance for any replies


<hr width=100% size=1>You can lead a student to knowledge, but you cannot make them think.

 

[snowleopard]

the problem is more the other way round, when going to windward the forward sail backwinds the after one. most ketches just drop the mizzen when going to windward but on a schooner the fore backwinds the main and if you drop the main you've very little left, if you drop the fore you lose the slot. if you keep all sail set you have to sail very free and ease the foresail so of course you don't point too well. a schooner can be goosewinged on a run but it's nerve-racking as one sail is always running by the lee.

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[davidbains]

Re: Why are Ketch/Yawls more numerous than Schoone

Mik, I think it's basically a question of size! You need a larger boat than most to justify two tall masts. A schooner would be more complicated to sail since you have to use the main, whereas the mizzen on a ketch can be and often is ignored. In fact the small mizzens on most ketches provide very little drive and often seem to do little more than support the radome or windmill.
A large schooner is a rig for a sailing enthusiast. Many ketches seem to be basically motor sailers since the slightly small main does not give good light airs performance. The much vaunted mizzen staysail is conspicuous by it's abscence. A good compromise is a cutter. It reefs down well, remaining balanced, and three sails is enough on the about forty foot boats many liveaboards are on. The staysail will effectively be the storm jib with the genoa on a roller, and makes a good match with a severely reefed main. Not so good on light airs off the wind when the staysail can be dropped and a large flying headsail used alone with the main. i converted my sloop to a cutter with a removeable inner forestay and never regretted it. I like the name too, Slutter!
David.
David.

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[heerenleed]

Just for ease of handling

It's quite simple, really. We have a proper ketch, a Nicholson 48. And yes, we do need the mizzen for propulsion, as it is quite large. So no, we do not ignore it when sailling upwind, we use it, and we need to.

The most important advantage when sailing short-handed, like us (we sail the boat between the two of us) is the ease of handling. When the wind pipes up, and when we need to reduce sail, first the mainsail is reefed, then double reefed, then doused. Under full rolling headsail (120% genoa) and full mizzen the boat is perfectly balanced. If we need to reduce more sail, we can roll the genny and reef the mizzen. If it gets worse, we could continue under storm jib alone.
Generally, we love our mizzen: it goes up first and it comes down last.
When entering an unfamiliar port, we can leave the mizzen up untill we are in calm waters, even if there is very little space we can still take it down (on any course rreally) as it is not enormous.

The disadvantage is that , when sailing hard on the wind, the mizzen is in the turbulence of the main, which makes it less efficient. therefore, on a heavyweight like ours, we bear away a little, sill tacking between 95 degrees true.

A schooner, though very elegant, is quite a handfull in a blow, because you need to do a lot of reefing. The only exeption is the more practical (but mostly very ugly) French version: often hard-chined steel boats with two almost equal masts with one rolling headsail each and one mainsail on the aft mast. Quite practical, I think, but not very nice to look at.

I do not at all agree with other posters when they say that the mizzen does not do much for propulsion. On a proper ketch it does. It is a very efficient rig exept on courses very hard on the wind and dead runs. The latter can be cured with a spinnaker or a cruising chute.

cheers and fair winds

Peter a/b SV Heerenleed, Steenbergen, Netherlands<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by heerenleed on 23/03/2004 12:11 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[Benbow]

Re: Just for ease of handling

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

A schooner, though very elegant, is quite a handfull in a blow

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Schooners are much more common on the E coast of the USA. Could this be because it is generally more sheltered with mostly offshore and more predictable winds ?

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The latter can be cured with a spinnaker or a cruising chute.

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And a huge mizzen staysail. No ketch is complete without one !

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[heerenleed]

Re: Just for ease of handling

About the USA east coast I know far too little to comment.
You are quite right about the mizzen staysail. Ours (I forgot to mention this sail alltogehter) is not huge, as we have a sheltered cockpit and the mizzen staysail is limited in its size by the shelter. But it is quite a help and quite easy to handle. It is oldish and needs replacement, which it will get soon (hopefully).

cheers

<hr width=100% size=1>Peter a/b SV Heerenleed, Steenbergen, Netherlands

 

[charles_reed]

The theory of sailing is inherently the same as that of aerodynamics.
Splitting sail area is first and foremost about easing handling, however each extra mast added reduces the efficiency of the total sail area.
More recent designs have tended to a sloop rig, partly because of the greater efficiency and partly because new materials and handling methods have made large sails easier to handle and the tackle easier to make.

In fact the popularity of Ketch rig is more apparent than real - in those areas of the world where reaching winds are the norm, you'll find the schooner the far more popular rig. In fact one of the fastest short handed cruising designs I know of has just this rig. (Well two masts of exactly the same height, tho' the designer still refers to the after mast as the mizzen).
Going to windward a sloop rig is probably favourite (many twin masted boats only populate the forward mast on this point of sail), but off the wind the additional sail area you can set on your mizzen staysail gives you an edge over most sloops. The answer to this on a sloop, is to set a genniker (Codes 1 & 2), but that requires a properly rigged bowsprit and a lot of sweat.
As with everything else yacht design is subject to fashion - no doubt big sloops will one day be considered passé.

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[Mik_Mohr]

Thank you all for your replies and explanations. A lot of the ideas are familiar from my line of work.

I do not see brilliant windward performance at the top of my list of requirements for a boat at this time. Personally a very sturdy seaworthy vessel, capable of being run by a shorthanded crew (or even single handed), is very attractive to me.

Thanks again and regards to all,



<hr width=100% size=1>You can lead a student to knowledge, but you cannot make them think.