geronimo
Active Member
I cannot find a single new boat of around 40-45 feet with a ketch rig. what is wrong with two masts vs one?
Why are ketch rigs out of fashion
- Thread starter geronimo
- Start date
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
Costs more to build so look uncompetitively priced compared with a sloop.
But Nauticat will flog you a 38' or 44' one.
But Nauticat will flog you a 38' or 44' one.
stormeagle
Member
As the owner of an Oyster 39 Ketch, I would suggest that a cutter with modern deck gear is both more efficient, and easier to work short handed, particularly with in-mast furlingf.
I would certainly swap!
Incidentally, if you have pots of the long green, there is an excellent French ketch, Amiel.
I would certainly swap!
Incidentally, if you have pots of the long green, there is an excellent French ketch, Amiel.
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
Also, ketch was fashionable when smaller sail areas were more user friendly. With better winches (even electric ones) deck gear, etc, it's not so hard to handle bigger sail areas now. And the back stick does tend to get in the way of things, although it is a great place to hang stuff like a wind genny, nav aerials, etc.
Kristal
Well-Known Member
That's the thing - originally, they were supposed to be easier to handle without a large crew competent. These days, technology has turned that on it's head.
Mine is a yawl - it's a sailplan I quite like, and I do like the extra hanging space, what with wireless internet going in this year and all. I haven't really got the hang of making it do what it's supposed to do, but being able to drop the main, proceed under headsail and mizzen, and put in a reef in your own time is pretty handy.
/<
Mine is a yawl - it's a sailplan I quite like, and I do like the extra hanging space, what with wireless internet going in this year and all. I haven't really got the hang of making it do what it's supposed to do, but being able to drop the main, proceed under headsail and mizzen, and put in a reef in your own time is pretty handy.
/<
boatmike
Well-Known Member
Horses for courses. Apart from the very valid points made by others a ketch rig is generally less efficient than a sloop. In boats of under 40 ft, the sail areas have always been fairly modest anyway so what people have said about modern winches, gear, and rigs (especially roller reefing headsails) make a sloop more attractive, cheaper, and easier to sail. In vessels over this size you will still see plenty of ketches though to keep the mast height down and have more manageable sails for short handed crews on cruising boats. Upwards of 60 ft I would always go for a ketch personally unless it is a racing machine with gorillas on board.
M
MarkG
Guest
While we're on the subject.
Is it true that if one sets one's mizzen sail whilst at anchor it stops the yacht swinging back and forth?
Is it true that if one sets one's mizzen sail whilst at anchor it stops the yacht swinging back and forth?
Bejasus
Well-Known Member
so what about a cutter rigged ketch then?
Sea Devil
Well-Known Member
Quite a lot of fishing boats have a little sail permanently set to stop rolling.. That is what a mizen sail does for a yacht. I had a ketch on a 42ft steel boat and would not repeat the experience. The mizen is a good place to hang the Radar and other antenna from but otherwise is a bit of a waste of time.
Because modern equipment is so efficient and light it is easy to handle a big mainsail with little effort. In the old days it was so heavy people turned to ketches to have bigger boats but with smaller sails. Not necessary nowadays until you are up in the 60ft range.
It is not a particularly efficient rig and it is lots of work setting 3 sails instead of one every time you go out - looks lovely and you can set a mizzen staysail in light airs - all good fun but not really worth the effort - I think.
Michael
Because modern equipment is so efficient and light it is easy to handle a big mainsail with little effort. In the old days it was so heavy people turned to ketches to have bigger boats but with smaller sails. Not necessary nowadays until you are up in the 60ft range.
It is not a particularly efficient rig and it is lots of work setting 3 sails instead of one every time you go out - looks lovely and you can set a mizzen staysail in light airs - all good fun but not really worth the effort - I think.
Michael
andy_wilson
Well-Known Member
No... it's to stop it swinging from side to side!
DanTribe
Well-Known Member
I recently cruised on a friends 37ft ketch.
1st day out, "Shall we set the mizzen, skip ?"
"No good downwind, it blankets the main"
2nd day. "Mizzen ?"
"No good on a beat, too much turbulance from main"
"It's great for broad reaching though"
But then any rig will go well.
It was also very efficient at collecting dew and dripping on the helmsman all night.
1st day out, "Shall we set the mizzen, skip ?"
"No good downwind, it blankets the main"
2nd day. "Mizzen ?"
"No good on a beat, too much turbulance from main"
"It's great for broad reaching though"
But then any rig will go well.
It was also very efficient at collecting dew and dripping on the helmsman all night.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Why are ketch rigs out of fashion .... is that the only concern ?
I for one like balance and look of items ... and over recent years many things such as cars, houses etc. have become much the same. Look around marina's now and you have to approach reasonably close to distinguish one modern boat from another ... it's what I have come to call "The Ford Sierra" style ... everyone poured scorn on the jellymould style of the sierra ... but soon most were following it .... till only shape of lights etc. distinguished different makes of car.
This is happening with boats ....
The traditional ketch / yawls of before ... and sloops had each their own style and character. Even at serious distance a Westerly can be determined from another ... The ketch in full flight is a "picture" for the eyes ... and I for one would have a ketch ... damn the pro's and con's - the ketch's I have sailed have been well balanced and a pleasure to be on.
There is one area that is a definite disadvantage ... the aspect ratio of the sail area is against you with a lot of ketch's ... so more thought has to be taken in sail setting to regain it's advantages.
Just because a designer reckons a style is better - I hope doesn't mean we should be left without choice ...
I for one like balance and look of items ... and over recent years many things such as cars, houses etc. have become much the same. Look around marina's now and you have to approach reasonably close to distinguish one modern boat from another ... it's what I have come to call "The Ford Sierra" style ... everyone poured scorn on the jellymould style of the sierra ... but soon most were following it .... till only shape of lights etc. distinguished different makes of car.
This is happening with boats ....
The traditional ketch / yawls of before ... and sloops had each their own style and character. Even at serious distance a Westerly can be determined from another ... The ketch in full flight is a "picture" for the eyes ... and I for one would have a ketch ... damn the pro's and con's - the ketch's I have sailed have been well balanced and a pleasure to be on.
There is one area that is a definite disadvantage ... the aspect ratio of the sail area is against you with a lot of ketch's ... so more thought has to be taken in sail setting to regain it's advantages.
Just because a designer reckons a style is better - I hope doesn't mean we should be left without choice ...
DanTribe
Well-Known Member
Re: Why are ketch rigs out of fashion .... is that the only concern ?
I quite agree with you about a boat looking right. In my view it is the first consideration, then sailing efficiency, bottom of my list is internal decor and furnishings.
However, as you seldom get a good view of your own boat, perhaps we should encourage other people to have pretty boats for us to look at, and sail bland but efficient ones ourselves.
The ketch I sailed on was normally crewed by a husband & wife, but wifey was becoming less keen in recent years.
I soon realised how labour intensive it is to sail a cutter headed ketch, with no furling headsails. Very pretty and individual, but it actually cuts down the amount of sailing you do because of the effort required.
I think the size factor is important, small yawls can look right and seem efficient, small ketches, to me, look wrong. Out of scale and an "effectation" to satisfy the owners whim. That's fine, we all have boats for our individual reasons.
Please continue to have a picturesque yacht for me to admire.
I quite agree with you about a boat looking right. In my view it is the first consideration, then sailing efficiency, bottom of my list is internal decor and furnishings.
However, as you seldom get a good view of your own boat, perhaps we should encourage other people to have pretty boats for us to look at, and sail bland but efficient ones ourselves.
The ketch I sailed on was normally crewed by a husband & wife, but wifey was becoming less keen in recent years.
I soon realised how labour intensive it is to sail a cutter headed ketch, with no furling headsails. Very pretty and individual, but it actually cuts down the amount of sailing you do because of the effort required.
I think the size factor is important, small yawls can look right and seem efficient, small ketches, to me, look wrong. Out of scale and an "effectation" to satisfy the owners whim. That's fine, we all have boats for our individual reasons.
Please continue to have a picturesque yacht for me to admire.
G
Guest
Guest
I wish !!
I quite agree that there was a tendency for small boats to be ill-equipped as ketchs etc.
I think a boat should be 35ftand above before it becomes a real possibility to have 2 masts set-up. The Macwester Wight is a boat that I like - but suffers from its sail set-up and form - so no argument about suitability. But many other boats with 2 up ... are good sailers ...
The factor of combining non-furling cutter rig and 2 up - of course it will incur penalties of work !! I would like to think that a 2 up boat I later get would have the luxury of labour saving furling gear etc.
Who in their right mind would have a boat nowadays with gaff rig, wishbones, top-sails and royals, standing and dipping lugsails etc. - people do and I'm glad that they do ... each to their own ...
I quite agree that there was a tendency for small boats to be ill-equipped as ketchs etc.
I think a boat should be 35ftand above before it becomes a real possibility to have 2 masts set-up. The Macwester Wight is a boat that I like - but suffers from its sail set-up and form - so no argument about suitability. But many other boats with 2 up ... are good sailers ...
The factor of combining non-furling cutter rig and 2 up - of course it will incur penalties of work !! I would like to think that a 2 up boat I later get would have the luxury of labour saving furling gear etc.
Who in their right mind would have a boat nowadays with gaff rig, wishbones, top-sails and royals, standing and dipping lugsails etc. - people do and I'm glad that they do ... each to their own ...
