Why are boats so expensive ?

SailBobSquarePants said:
I have yet to see anything like this arrangement in the UK, at least on the south shore / Solent area. Does anyone know of one?
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It sounds a bit like the former setup at the Island Cruising Club, though that seems to have become more of a standard dinghy teaching establishment with a wee bit of cruising these days. I would be interested to know what led them to change and move - strong competition from the charter companies, maybe?
 
There have been all kinds of shared ownership schemes over the years including club owned fleets. They need a number of factors to make them successful of which the two main ones are an organisation with the skills and commitment to run the boats efficiently and sufficient people to fund the collective costs (plus of course somewhere to keep the boats and space to use them). From observation it seems that the combination of people who own boats, keen non boat owning crew and a club with facilities provides an informal version of what is proposed.

Boats seem to have become personal assets rather than tool for the job, but of course for those who don't want to take on 100% of a boat the charter industry provides an economical way of getting fixed time usage.
 
Boats expensive? Much less so than in the past. AN original brochure came with the 1972 Trapper 500 I bought recently. In biro was written: 'Fin £11,250'.

The RPI has increased more than ten fold in that time; I would think the average wage nearer twenty fold.

That makes the Trapper between £120k and £200k in today's money. For a 28 footer?
 
Tranona said:
Boats seem to have become personal assets rather than tool for the job, but of course for those who don't want to take on 100% of a boat the charter industry provides an economical way of getting fixed time usage.
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I would like to point out that the charter industry does NOT provide any economy if you wish to be a frequent sailor. That was/is the beauty of a BSC-type organization - if you had the flexibility in your schedule, you could sail 4 times a week, with no per use costs. I certainly did at least two summers when I was working from home for clients.

I think the limiting factors appear to be:
1) You MUST have a customer base that is an easy drive or walk of your base, so that it is something that people will even come down and do after a day at work. The BSC has Soling and J/24 racing after work twice a week, for example.

2) It also helps to have a good supply of cheap and cheerful (but skilled) boating employees. The manpower required to run such a scheme is rather large (imagine the maint, drivers for the workboat/water taxi, instructors, and even the office staff). Boston is well situated for that, because it has a huge number of universities and colleges, so finding summer help for peak season is rather easy.

3) Cheap access to mooring areas, berth areas, etc. Nearly all of the Sailing clubs laid and owned their own mooring areas, and all had substantial fixed berths as well for their larger boats. In many places in the UK I would expect this to be much more expensive than in Boston.

4) Finally, it helps to have a sailing area where there are an awful lot of nice destinations for a day's cruise within easy reach. The inner and outer Boston harbour is even better in that regard that the Solent, because of the islands in the outer harbour and approaches, many of which are anchorable, and a few of which have docks. That makes it easy to keep cruisers interested and coming back.

I should also point out that these schemes are NOT run as charities - they are businesses, and they make money. But I have a feeling that the price to set one up today would require a substantial capital investment up front...
 
Boats aren't so expensive; you can make it expensive.

people always want a bigger boat (also me) but you have to realise that if you buy a bigger boat you don't have more fun. In fact if you have a big boat you have a good job and you have to work in weekend so you have less time for fun. Next to that on a bigger boat you need a crew while on a smaller one you can go alone.

keeping the boat in a good condition costs money but do we always need everything? To be honest I dont have a wind speed system, I can feel the wind and I know how many knots the wind blows. I also don't have a navtex.....the biggest sailtrips are 150-200nm and everywhere you can get the weather prediction for the next 24 hrs and you also have your eyes.

so you can make it as expensive as you want and making a christmas tree from your boat

grtz
 
SailBobSquarePants said:
I would like to point out that the charter industry does NOT provide any economy if you wish to be a frequent sailor.
I think the limiting factors appear to be:
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If you are looking at defined use, charter boats are very economical. You can charter a £100k boat for a week with a crew of 4-6 for less than 2% of its value.

As to the rest of your points you have answered your own question. Very few places in the UK would get anywhere near to meeting your conditions - which is why the schemes you see in the US would not be viable here.

There are all kinds of shared ownership schemes available at varying levels of engagement that have evolved to suit circumstances here, but of course difficult to meet every individual requirement.
 
Joker said:
That makes the Trapper between £120k and £200k in today's money. For a 28 footer?
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It's an interesting idea. I've just had a look at the RPI figures here, and applying them would make my Victoria 26 just a shade under £50k today, based on the original invoice I have from 1986. There aren't many 26 footers being made now, but I see that a basic Cornish Crabber 26 is a cool £82,500. Ticking the boxes to include the equivalent of Jumblie's spec as supplied takes it up to £87,463.

As a further comparison, a Westerly Centaur cost £12,025 in 1980, which would be £44k today.

Earlier Centaur prices were £2,790 in 1970 and £8,450 in 1975, which would be £35k and £63k today. I'm not sure what that shows, but I think it may include "The 1973/4 oil crisis put the price of GRP boats through the roof" and "Hand built boats nowadays are vastly more expensive than hand-built boats thirty years ago"
 
Tranona said:
As to the rest of your points you have answered your own question. Very few places in the UK would get anywhere near to meeting your conditions - which is why the schemes you see in the US would not be viable here.
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I've had a look at the BSC website, and it strikes me that it's clearly geared to those who want to sail mainly in the evening and at weekends with one short annual cruise. The Cruising 30 deal, for example, gets you seven days for $4k = £2.5k. That's pretty good if you do can do a lot of day trips, but a quick google suggests that the going rate for a Bavaria 36 on the Solent is £1,200 - £1,700 per week.

I suspect that the BSC fees structure is geared towards typically very short american vacations. It reminds me of the City Car Club in Edinburgh, which is jolly good value if you need a car for an hour or two a few times a week but not if you want one for a weekend or longer.
 
Ubergeekian said:
I've had a look at the BSC website, and it strikes me that it's clearly geared to those who want to sail mainly in the evening and at weekends with one short annual cruise. The Cruising 30 deal, for example, gets you seven days for $4k = £2.5k. That's pretty good if you do can do a lot of day trips, but a quick google suggests that the going rate for a Bavaria 36 on the Solent is £1,200 - £1,700 per week.

I suspect that the BSC fees structure is geared towards typically very short american vacations. It reminds me of the City Car Club in Edinburgh, which is jolly good value if you need a car for an hour or two a few times a week but not if you want one for a weekend or longer.
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I think you are entirely correct - as I've implied, they are the inverse of a charter company. What it IS is a great way to get lots of good experience, fairly rapidly, on weekends and evenings. And remember that it stays light there a bit longer than the UK during the summer too.

I think organizations like this would be an easy answer to those that post here saying "How do I learn?, What do I buy?, How do I get started?", but want something more than dinghy sailing. Many people I knew in Boston started in Solings, moved to Js, did the Coastal Cruising certifications, and then bought their own boats in a couple of years.

But I've left the best part out - the BSC is right next door to The Boston Sail Loft (http://www.yelp.com/biz/the-boston-sail-loft-boston) . It has gotten yuppier over the years, but it still has great food and free Oreos at the bar. And on weekends is usually filled with actual sailors... :O

I'm going to be homesick now...
 
Reading through the OP's question, I can relate to this being in a similar position. I think the answer lies in a case study just related in one of the yachting mags where they examined a transaction from the seller and buyers point of view.

It turns out the seller wasn't a rip off merchant trying to get an unrealistic price for his over valued boat, nor was the buyer a tight fisted so and so trying to screw the seller to the floor. They simply saw two different boats.

If you compare it with cars, for many of us say ten years with the same car would see us quite happy to see the back of it at any price as it would be a load of trouble and about to get worse. With a yacht though, surely many owners who seem to have a highly optimistic idea of its value just see all the good points and ignore what the seller sees. I have seen boats recently at £5-10,000 which are to any buyer with an ounce of sense, worthless. But to the seller they are their pride and joy, it's difficult to be objective.

As for brokers... A yacht nearby was advertised at £20,000 and was well described and by all accounts attracted plenty of interest. I had a look at it and yes, the broker had described it accurately, but had failed to see it from a prospective buyers point of view. You know what I mean, "a bit of TLC" hid a multitude of sins. It was eventually dropped to £12,500 and I suspect sold for less. Brokers are like estate agents though, they wouldn't get customers if they concentrated on the negative aspects of the item in question.

My experience is anyone with a boat over 25', in any condition, seems to think it is worth at least £5000. If you take a realistic view of boat owning costs I reckon most of these lower end boats are worth very little.

Don't know what the answer is. I bet if you asked all the sellers of boats I have looked at they would describe me as a time waster, yet I haven't seen a boat yet that was worth anywhere near what was being asked. One particularly depressing experience involved the seller citing a similar example to his, fully 500 miles away on the south coast, as justification for the ridiculous, and I mean ridiculous, price tag. (that boat was eventually reduced by £7,500 as well) This is another problem, the internet now allows sellers to make meaningless comparisons with similar boats all over the country.

Clearly if you have something sought after which traditionally holds its value you don't want to give it away, but even then we are going through an uncertain time where historical values of "luxury" items aren't that relevant.

I remember the classic car boom of a couple of decades ago when a lot of middle aged men were going crazy and forgetting that, at the end of the day, an "classic" car is just an old car seen through sepia tinted glasses.
The nation came to its senses eventually, maybe some common sense will prevail in the boat world too.

As regards the top end of the market, I have, and I suspect never will have, any experience or knowledge, but however bad things get there always seems to be enough serious money around to keep prices up.
 
Nealo said:
Clearly if you have something sought after which traditionally holds its value you don't want to give it away, but even then we are going through an uncertain time where historical values of "luxury" items aren't that relevant.

I remember the classic car boom of a couple of decades ago when a lot of middle aged men were going crazy and forgetting that, at the end of the day, an "classic" car is just an old car seen through sepia tinted glasses.
The nation came to its senses eventually, maybe some common sense will prevail in the boat world too.

As regards the top end of the market, I have, and I suspect never will have, any experience or knowledge, but however bad things get there always seems to be enough serious money around to keep prices up.
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You seem to imply that the current economic malaise will last indefinitely. Economies ARE cyclical, and there will be a recovery - 2012 or 2013, but things will get better. And as a result prices of expensive goods will rebound - how fast and how much is still an open point, but they will rebound.

I also think that a very important point has been missed - the UK used boat market was ravaged for a couple of years by European buyers that used favourable Euro/Pound exchange rates to come over and buy up many of the better used boats in the UK. That has had the impact of driving up used prices of even less desirable boats, as the choices are not as plentiful. That's just simple economics - and it HAS hurt the used market here. Also hurting is that many UK liveaboards buy, train, and equip here, and them emigrate to the Med with their boats - but no one does the inverse. Again, this leads to an emigration of better used boats.

And I am not sure the used car market is a good comparison. People buy classic cars usually NOT to drive them, and rarely as their only car. They buy them as investments, they buy them to fulfil a childhood dream, but they rarely buy them as transport.

But people buy classic boats to SAIL them, and they will usually be their only boat. They buy them because the initial purchase price IS cheaper, and they can use sweat equity to lower their overall investment. Some of us buy old boats just because we like the look and feel of them - in the case of my Nic 32 it was because my SWMBO REALLY liked the teak and mahogany interior, and the four huge doghouse ports. I liked having a boat that would see us through anything and has a strong class association, and was small enough for me to feel comfortable single-handing. We've looked high and low at more modern boats, and until I can swing a large Rustler or a Najad (dream on), there is little else we really feel at home in - the interiors of most modern boats feel like caravans compared to a GOOD older boat. And as SRP and I were discussing yesterday, it's hard not to love a Taylor's stove!
 
Sailng is certainly a luxury.

My dad bought an old motor boat on Lough Neagh when I was a kid. We only went out on it twice. But I remember it. I don't know what happened to it.

As a parent, I think it's important to introduce my kids to the water.
 
Ubergeekian said:
It's an interesting idea. I've just had a look at the RPI figures here, and applying them would make my Victoria 26 just a shade under £50k today, based on the original invoice I have from 1986. There aren't many 26 footers being made now, but I see that a basic Cornish Crabber 26 is a cool £82,500. Ticking the boxes to include the equivalent of Jumblie's spec as supplied takes it up to £87,463.

As a further comparison, a Westerly Centaur cost £12,025 in 1980, which would be £44k today.

Earlier Centaur prices were £2,790 in 1970 and £8,450 in 1975, which would be £35k and £63k today. I'm not sure what that shows, but I think it may include "The 1973/4 oil crisis put the price of GRP boats through the roof" and "Hand built boats nowadays are vastly more expensive than hand-built boats thirty years ago"
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Perhaps the point is that neither Victoria marine nor Westerly were viable businesses and went bust. They werent charging enough.

Interestingly, whilst RPI has doubled since 86, average annual income has trebled. So JNumblie is near enough just as affordable now as then.

In any event the RPI might possibly index the cost of survival but it most certainly doesnt reflect the cost of anything you would want to buy as opposed to have to buy.
 
Bosun Higgs said:
Perhaps the point is that neither Victoria marine nor Westerly were viable businesses and went bust. They werent charging enough.
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Well, eventually. Victoria survived another fifteen years after Jumblie was built and Westerly survived for almost twenty years after the Centaur ended through the Dubois years and beyond. On that basis, it looks to me as if the prices they were charging in the 80s must have been broadly correct.

Anyway, going bust seems to be the inevitable fate of all yacht makers. Even might Bavaria had to be rescued last year, with its rather optimistic former owners losing their shirts.

In any event the RPI might possibly index the cost of survival but it most certainly doesnt reflect the cost of anything you would want to buy as opposed to have to buy.
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Oh yes indeed. The ONS has an astonishing range of RPI indices to choose from.
 
Ubergeekian said:
It sounds a bit like the former setup at the Island Cruising Club, though that seems to have become more of a standard dinghy teaching establishment with a wee bit of cruising these days. I would be interested to know what led them to change and move - strong competition from the charter companies, maybe?
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I too would be interested. A poster on a recent thread said that he had been a Skipper/Instructor with the ICC, sailing cross-Channel IIRC.

I have searched for it without success.

Reading about the Boston SC, I am racked with jealosy. I find it intriguing that such a cooperative arrangement can thrive in the USA, which we are led to believe is totally driven by individualism.
 
BobPrell said:
Reading about the Boston SC, I am racked with jealosy. I find it intriguing that such a cooperative arrangement can thrive in the USA, which we are led to believe is totally driven by individualism.
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It is not a cooperative - it is very much a business. NOT hugely money making, but Dave Frankel who started it (and is a champion Sonar racer in his own right) used it as his only source of income for many years, before selling it to the current ownership. It did make enough money to purchase the large lake steamer for a base when the old wooden clubhouse literally began falling into the harbor, which was not cheap, and other improvements, and although the boats are NOT luxurious they are at least decently maintained. But Dave himself never looked like he had all that much money, and drove an old battered van around for the 5 years I was there.
 
Thanks SailBob, and others for these interesting contributions.

The BSC sounds to me, as if it has equal benefit to its users as if it had been designed as and called, a cooperative.

It also sounds as if the founder must have been exposed to some risk. Good on 'im.

In my memory (rated unreliable) I saw an entry in the Sydney Yellow pages 20-odd years ago, for an Island Sailing Club, with club-owned boats. I was not a Sydney resident at the time.

It does not exist now so I presume it did not prosper.
 
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