Who thinks a vessel under sail always has right of way?

[DanTribe]

Former Merchant mariner here. Very well said sir, I did indeed do the same as our speeds are much higher compared to leisure boats and our manoeuvrability is a bit lower making time and distance your friend. So in open water I make sure to stick to the rules as a leisure sailor now. However when encountering professional traffic near Rotterdam, Flushing, IJmuiden I make sure to stay well out of their way outside the bouyed channels if water depth allows. Traffic Control is very helpful in guiding you through these traffic situations.

You sound like the right person to ask this.
As a rule I assume that I'm invisible to large ships although I do transmit on AIS. This summer I was crossing the South bound channel about 3 miles from mid Falls heading West. I noted 2 ships to the North and calculated that we would pass clear ahead, but then realised that the furthest ship was travelling much faster and it would be a close call. I tried calling on Ch 16 to see if I should stand on but got no response. I reversed course until she was past, then went behind her.
What is the preferred option when viewed from a ships bridge, follow the rules or get out of the way?

 

[Poignard]

I think there is a moral if not legal responsibility for skippers of fast or unusually fast boats to keep out of the way. A slower boat may not have the ability to manoeuvre adequately, and assessment of a fast vessel without radar or AIS can be very hard, often in limited time.

I don't agree with that. The ColRegs are clear and morality doesn't come into it.

In open water one can judge the risk of collision by noting whether the relative bearing changes.

In confined waters one can judge the speed of the other vessel by reference to land marks.

All that being subject, of course, to any local regulations.

 

[oldbloke]

I think there is a moral if not legal responsibility for skippers of fast or unusually fast boats to keep out of the way. A slower boat may not have the ability to manoeuvre adequately, and assessment of a fast vessel without radar or AIS can be very hard, often in limited time.

I am not sure I would phrase it quite like that but, in real world scenarios I would tend to agree with you. If I am motoring out of harbour at 5 knots and the moth fleet come at me at 30 it's generally better for all concerned for me to maintain my course and speed and they just treat me as an obstruction, likewise if a hot rod multi engined rib approaches from starboard at 50 knots.

 

[PaulRainbow]

You sound like the right person to ask this.
As a rule I assume that I'm invisible to large ships although I do transmit on AIS. This summer I was crossing the South bound channel about 3 miles from mid Falls heading West. I noted 2 ships to the North and calculated that we would pass clear ahead, but then realised that the furthest ship was travelling much faster and it would be a close call. I tried calling on Ch 16 to see if I should stand on but got no response. I reversed course until she was past, then went behind her.
What is the preferred option when viewed from a ships bridge, follow the rules or get out of the way?

You can do both.

If you make a speed or course change early enough and obvious enough Colregs doesn't come into it.

 

[johnalison]

I don't agree with that. The ColRegs are clear and morality doesn't come into it.

In open water one can judge the risk of collision by noting whether the relative bearing changes.

In confined waters one can judge the speed of the other vessel by reference to land marks.

All that being subject, of course, to any local regulations.

Perhaps I could have written 'practical obligation', but I don't agree with your contention that it is always easy to judge a fast craft's future position. Maybe when seen from a distance with plenty of time, but in somewhere like the Blackwater it can be very hard , and I generally reckon I am fairly good at this sort of judgement. This can happen with sailing cats and tris, and also with a fast motorboat off my starboard bow.

 

[LittleSister]

Sometimes you can anticipate, or at least suspect, it, but from a distance it isn’t always easy to tell when a situation is unfolding towards a head on clash on a YBW Forum thread.

 

[requiem]

This summer I was crossing the South bound channel about 3 miles from mid Falls heading West. I noted 2 ships to the North and calculated that we would pass clear ahead, but then realised that the furthest ship was travelling much faster and it would be a close call. I tried calling on Ch 16 to see if I should stand on but got no response. I reversed course until she was past, then went behind her.

Two thoughts come to mind. First, often 16 is not always the correct channel to use. In areas with VTS ships may be monitoring other channels. For example, in my area it would be 13 and either 12 or 14 depending on location. On the Elbe (since I was just looking over that accident report), it might be 74 & 14 or 68 & 9.

Second, when a narrow channel is in play, "stand on" does not override the continuing obligation not to impede. If a course looks like a close call I would pick another. Unless you're both racing, the obligation is not simply to avoid a collision, but also to pass at a safe distance.

 

[Poignard]

Perhaps I could have written 'practical obligation', but I don't agree with your contention that it is always easy to judge a fast craft's future position. Maybe when seen from a distance with plenty of time, but in somewhere like the Blackwater it can be very hard , and I generally reckon I am fairly good at this sort of judgement. This can happen with sailing cats and tris, and also with a fast motorboat off my starboard bow.

But I did not contend that "it is always easy"

What I did say was that in confined waters one can make a judgment by reference to fixed objects.

Other visual clues might include: the nature of the other vessel; its bow wave; moored vessels astern of it rolling wildly; people shaking their fists at it; bathers hastily gathering up their belongings and running up the beach; &c.

 

[Roberto]

How many sailors on here think they have absolute right of way once they are under sail relative to all other vessels not under sail.

I reckon a substantial number of sailors think they are stand on with everyone else, including other sailboats. Port/stb tack windward/leeward... who cares, I am sailing I have right of way

 

[ylop]

I reckon a substantial number of sailors think they are stand on with everyone else, including other sailboats. Port/stb tack windward/leeward... who cares, I am sailing I have right of way

Interestingly I’d say it’s almost the opposite! There are certainly some who hold their ground (I don’t know if the are playing chicken, not as reactive as I would be, not actually looking where they are going, or mistakenly think they are standon), most seem to know what they are doing, but then there are some who seem to see another boat and panic to get out its way even if they were the standon vessel. I think I encounter more of the latter than the former.

 

[Roberto]

Interestingly I’d say it’s almost the opposite! There are certainly some who hold their ground (I don’t know if the are playing chicken, not as reactive as I would be, not actually looking where they are going, or mistakenly think they are standon), most seem to know what they are doing, but then there are some who seem to see another boat and panic to get out its way even if they were the standon vessel. I think I encounter more of the latter than the former.

No one when you on starboard tack cross by their stern, hidden by their sails until the last second, then they appear almost bothered you cross so near while they are in the cockpit tapping on their phones. Lucky you

 

[ylop]

No one when you on starboard tack cross by their stern, hidden by their sails until the last second, then they appear almost bothered you cross so near while they are in the cockpit tapping on their phones. Lucky you

Ah, maybe a Solent thing? I don’t think I’ve even seen anyone sailing along tapping their phone. They might be doing that but usually I’m not close enough to see their hands.

 

[johnalison]

But I did not contend that "it is always easy"

What I did say was that in confined waters one can make a judgment by reference to fixed objects.

Other visual clues might include: the nature of the other vessel; its bow wave; moored vessels astern of it rolling wildly; people shaking their fists at it; bathers hastily gathering up their belongings and running up the beach; &c.

Many multihulls don’t really have bow waves that can be seen. I remember seeing a large cat in the Baltic that approached from afar and the only sign of its passing was a thin stream of atomised water.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Two thoughts come to mind. First, often 16 is not always the correct channel to use. In areas with VTS ships may be monitoring other channels. For example, in my area it would be 13 and either 12 or 14 depending on location. On the Elbe (since I was just looking over that accident report), it might be 74 & 14 or 68 & 9.

They are still required to maintain a listening watch on 16

 

[Poignard]

Many multihulls don’t really have bow waves that can be seen. I remember seeing a large cat in the Baltic that approached from afar and the only sign of its passing was a thin stream of atomised water.

But I did list "the nature of the other vessel" as one of the clues in my earlier post.

If I see a large ocean racing trimaran, or such like, I am likely to think it won't be hanging about.

 

[SeasickPete]

You sound like the right person to ask this.
As a rule I assume that I'm invisible to large ships although I do transmit on AIS. This summer I was crossing the South bound channel about 3 miles from mid Falls heading West. I noted 2 ships to the North and calculated that we would pass clear ahead, but then realised that the furthest ship was travelling much faster and it would be a close call. I tried calling on Ch 16 to see if I should stand on but got no response. I reversed course until she was past, then went behind her.
What is the preferred option when viewed from a ships bridge, follow the rules or get out of the way?

Not getting a reply from on a channel 16 VHF is a pretty big red flag and I would say you did the right thing by keeping a wide berth from this vessel. Good seamanship goes above all rules and this was a clear and concise way to keep you safe. I say this because you drastically altered your course in a single clearly deliberate action which can be observed visually, on radar and AIS.

AIS is really good for yacht visibility as this is shown both on radar (on top of the echo of your boat) and on the Ecdis (electronic chart system) and the these systems together are interlinked via NMEA and will give alarm when a CPA gets too small. (Depending on operator settings though)

This means that even if the operator did not set radar gain, rain and sea clutter settings correctly you still show up.

Too go a little deeper on the radar part, it is quite amazing how much commercial radars pick up when set up correctly. Of course weather and sea state may conceal you presence but generally when the sea state gets to that point most leisure craft choose to stay in Port. (Fair warning to those that are caught out, you won't be as visible and radar settings like rain and sea clutter which are meant to clear out the radar screen from "useless" echos can and will also filter out small craft in those conditions)

Lastly and then I'll finish my wall of text, apologies for nerding out here... Some operators sail based on CPA (closest point of approach) which works great when focused on electronic navigation. CPA 0,5 miles, Great no action is taken. Others choose to sail more on sight ( ferry operators and higher speed craft) meaning they will take your bearing and add 15 degrees to pass behind you when you come from starboard. For us sailors sitting in a cockpit this is really nice, you see a vessel steering right for you and then clearly see it turning to show it's port navigation light in the distance. No radar, AIS or electronics needed and all parties know what is going on. So far so good, however when paying attention to the CPA on your AIS, this may start alarming as it is only 0,1 miles because that ferry is continually steering back to it's original course whilst making sure to keep showing it's port light (bearing + 15 degrees). When in doubt, just give a call on 16, no harm no foul, everybody gets home safe.

Hope this helps!

 

[Shaz77]

That’s not what I was taught. A boat under sail is hampered in its manoeuvrability. Once the engine is running it is a simple job to steer on any point of the wind so is no longer hampered and so should be afforded the same status as a motoring boat.

You will never get through. Think of the last bank holiday of the summer. All those people who have paid their marina fees but not used their boats all year are out on the river probably to justify something in their minds and it becomes positively dangerously to be navigating. It happens every single year and it will happen next year and the following year. I don't think they know there is such a thing as ColRegs.

 

[PaulRainbow]

You will never get through. Think of the last bank holiday of the summer. All those people who have paid their marina fees but not used their boats all year are out on the river probably to justify something in their minds and it becomes positively dangerously to be navigating. It happens every single year and it will happen next year and the following year. I don't think they know there is such a thing as ColRegs.

We manage just fine and i guess everyone else manages too, with you being the obvious exception.