Who should stand on?

[Dougie_the_Mate]

Yesterday when we were sailing our Wayfarer into the jetty at Lochmaben one of the other guys came up behind us - right on our stern and clearly overtaking - as he drew alongside - about 2 metres away - he said 'you are now the windward vessel and must give way to me to let me into the jetty'. I informed him that as he was overtaking he had to keep clear - which was debatable, and we had to maintain our course and speed - which we had done, but he was insistent that the colregs were in his favour.

I should say that this was done in good humour and we were teasing each other as we came in, but I was left wondering what the decision would be had we collided. What exactly is meant by 'keeping clear' when overtaking?

Some of you may recall the problems which we had with our Westerley last summer, which were eventually resolved in our favour, although we were motoring and the other vessel was sailing.

But I thought I would ask your collective advice on this question.

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

Clear cut case this one.... the rules state very clearly

"any subsequent alteration of the bearing between teh two vessels shall not make the overtaking vessel a crossing vessel within the meaning of the Rules or relieve her of the duty of keeping clear of the overtaken vessel until she is finally past and clear"

 

[LadyInBed]

Was he bigger than you? /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

The simplest fix to this is to sail faster, and then no-one will overtake you /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[cliff]

You. If the other boats actions caused you to alter course I would have taken the matter to a higher authority. The CG want reports of such behaviour and if one believes what one reads prosecutions are becoming more frequent. Passing you at 2 metres is not "keeping clear" so the other boat is in violation of col regs mind you a little twitch of the tiller to maintain your course albeit towards the offending craft would probably sort him out.

Too many accidents start off as a little joke between "friends" them things go wrong and someone ends up with a damaged boat or worse!
----------

"Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity"

 

[Lakesailor]

Apart from the fact that he had not cleared you completely so was still the overtaking vessel, his action in passing to the lee, whilst correct, made you a "windward vessel". Not your problem

 

[flaming]

Even if you'd been racing he'd be in the wrong, as he established his overlap from behind. Comon racing trick to get round that is to sail up alongside someone and gybe twice. In that way you establish your overlap by gybing and can then luff the windward boat as far as you like.
Cheeky, but useful!

 

[Cornishman]

You looking for a big guy, then?

 

[Stemar]

[pedant mode]
I agree that you were the stand on vessel, but had you collided, you'd both be in the wrong 'cos the stand on vessel still has to take action to avoid a collision if the give way vessel doesn't.
[/pedant mode]

 

[Magic_Sailor]

You should.

Boat approaching from +/- 22.5 degrees (I think) of the stern is considered to be overtaking.

They must stay clear until safely past.

I had this 2 weeks ago off Calshot Spit. A larger vessel (40') approached (blue ensign) to within 2 - 5 m of me (lovely day, wind was constant and I wasn't too concerned) - he was helming and on watch on his own (he did have a lady crew who appeared to sunbathing laid out on a cockpit seat in her underwear) and took no notice of me at all. When about 10m past me he put the boat on autopilot and went below for about 5 minutes!

Question is...where did he go below?!!!

Magic

 

[tcm]

No need stand on if overtaken - FOREVER?

notwithstanding the overriding requirement to avouid a collision ....

...the overtaking boat has to "keep clear". The boat being overtaken can make rudder changes as far i understand Rule 13. You don't have to "stand on" - you can change speed and direction and the overtaking boat has to "keep clear" - so if there was a collision whilst one boat overtaking another i wd say that it's NOT a 50-50 apportionment of blame - the overtaking boat had a duty to "keep clear" according to rule 13.

Sepretly, tho, i wonder for how long one remains the "overtaken boat"? Rule 13 says as your post - No subsequent course-changes alter the fact that you're the overtaken boat.

So, the wombat who zoomed up to our stbd side and then shook his fist as he tried to duck under my bows ahead is of course out of order - as is your misguided mate on the other boat should be advised.

But if you re-overtake - you're still the "overtaken boat" according to rule 13, yes?

Even if you don't re-overtake, could you not make a note of any boat that overtakes you and argue that they overtook you an hour ago? What about two weeks ago? The rules don't seem to say...

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

Re: No need stand on if overtaken - FOREVER?

This is where the Racing rules kick in....

Overtaken is defined as when a line crossing through the mast, and perpendicular to the centre line is past a line drawn across the transom of the overtaken boat.... again, another rule used to good effect by the racers.... a little course change can make overtaking a much longer affair!

 

[doris]

Are you sure that this is still the case. I claimed this last year when a faster, closed-winded boat was over taking me on the low side and he demanded that I harden up thereby slowing and letting him through more quickly. I was hard on and declined to luff up any more and he got v. cross. Called me all sorts of names. Afterwards when I looked at the rules I got the impression that he was in the right. Love to know.

 

[sailorman]

mast " a beam "
not then overtaking

 

[gandy]

The racing rules don't appear to use the term overtaking at all. Its covered by a few rules governing overlapped boats, but these only apply to vessels on the same tack, as far as I can see.

Tony S

 

[jrt]

Surely the racing rules do not come into it unless both boats are racing, and racing each other. The only rules that matter are the IRPCS. Not some committee's interpretation of them. Rule 13 is the relevant rule.

 

[Guest]

Racing rules ?????

Please can someone tell me where in international law that Racing Rules have any applicable function in this thread ?? The question is simple Overtaking / Stand-on / Giveway vessel situation as per Int. Regs to Prevent Collsions at Sea .... QED

HE is the giveway vessel regardless ... YOU the original poster are the Stand-on vessel .... You should not take action that is unreasonable but are able to conduct your vessel onto new course or speed etc. - but with due good seamanship and regard for him overtaking ... He should keep clear untill well past and clear and not embarrass you by cutting fine or causing you to take avoiding action etc.

Very simple - cut and dried ... QED

 

[claymore]

I think you are so far away form RYA Towers that the local rules must be applied. Get to the Jetty - perhaps not in your chosen spot which the worthless miscreant has just occupied, tie up then get onto the Jetty and kick the sod in the nuts. Then go to his house - steal his chickens, his 4 ewes and the mangy auld coo he keeps, ravage his only daughter and sell his wife to a Campbell.

 

[gandy]

Re: Racing rules ?????

[ QUOTE ]
Please can someone tell me where in international law that Racing Rules have any applicable function in this thread ??

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think anyone implied that they're applicable in the original scenario. However the question was raised about differing definition of "overtaking" within racing rules vs IRPCS, and several posts followed that discussion. Maybe it should have been a separate thread.

Tony S

 

[Guest]

Yep - keep them to a different thread ...

Why ? There are a number of new people coming into this great sport all the time and many do not have real idea of right and wrong ... threads where things get mixed up ... Racing "Rules" .... (shall we leave of the word RULES ?? make it Racing "guide-lines"?) and IRPCS ... could lead an newbie without knowledge to make a fatal error ....

The post was about overtaking and the banter that ensued ... not racing and its intrusion into IRPCS that sometimes gets implied ...

Sorry about my rant - but I think they should be CLEARLY and without any grey areas ... be separated totally.

IRPCS rules regardless as far as I am concerned - except where Local HARBOUR Byelaws specifically say otherwise.