Who Pays For Engine Lifting Out And Replacing?

[tinkicker0]

The TK luck has held true to form this afternoon.

After looking at a marine suppliers website, finding out which starter motor they recommend as a replacement of my original unit, noting that they say "a direct replacement for Mercruiser part numbers tiddly pom and whoopy do.

I went onto the doug russel website and entered my engine number to cross ref the part number given with the official mercruiser part number. Yup part number tiddly pom.

Back to the suppliers, yep defo replacement for part number tiddly pom.

So I ordered it and also a bolt kit that is recommended.

After a great deal of cursing, swearing, standing on me head, crying in pain at me agony filled knees and generally wishing ill of design engineers that leave no room to move a spanner more than 1/8th of a turn at a time, I got the old motor out and new one in.

Power on, ignition on, whirrr brum graunch, CRACK! key off, all in the space of a second or so.

Removed starter and the casing has caught on the ring gear.

New starter was not a like for like replacement, new one was the latest lightweight PMGR motor, so comparing the two to see if they were identical was not possible as they are completely different, even in overall size.

Bolts suplied have knurls on the shanks that cut into the slightly smaller holes in the ally casing on the starter motor, so I put down the stiffness of the threads towards the end, as the knurls cutting into the casing.

Damned silly bolts

Not too concerned with the wrong part supplied, or the wasted afternoon spent upside down in the bilge.

I am concerned with the loud sharp crack just before I shut the motor down.

At best, the ring gear has moved from its seat on the flywheel, at worst, cracked ring gear, flywheel bolt or God knows.

One thing is clear, the motor has to come out for the flywheel assy to be inspected.

Who is liable for the boatyard fees?

Sent a friendly message to the supplier, not angry, been in the motor trade long enough to know s hit happens, but can't afford the marina workshop costs and don't have the tackle to pull the motor myself.

Advice?

Thanks.
Mark

 

[sarabande]

now, being of a suspicious mind...

Have you got screen dumps, copies of emails, etc, of the suppliers' sites showing the replacement numbers ?

I am sure that it is not impossible in a bit of updating of the websites, that some erroneous details might be , err, modified, especially if there is a possible cost implication.

 

[davidej]

Penny to a pound each will blame someone else and you will end up paying.

I doubt you have a strong enough case to take any one of these to court.

 

[tinkicker0]

Having looked more closely, it is certain that the ring gear has not contacted the casing, but the back side of the flywheel itself. Nothing there to damage usually. Wondering if the protruding thread of a drive coupling bolt has smacked the casing. Only thing I can think of.
Do the coupler bolts go right through the flywheel or are they blind? 14" flywheel.

Have to go down with a torch and a mirror tomorrow.
May not be as bad as I was thinking if so, and a minute with a minigrinder to take off the culprit of a second step on the casing may solve it, but the point is I should not have to


In the meantime, I intend to get rather spectacularly drunk to take my mind off it.


Boats are the work of the devil.

 

[Warpa]

I would say its your fault (well they will) when pulling out the old unit you check it against yours so you know it will fit? Now if it was an OEM replacement you are in a win win situation, but as we all know so called direct replacements are often cheaper for a reason

BUT as they state it is their direct replacement i think you have very good grounds for a bout of fisty cuffs

 

[volvopaul]

As you can see in the pics the motors are clearly nothing like for like, at that point id have contacted the supplier, will they take back the new one a you have damaged it.

I doubt you have any redress against the supplier as you fitted it, if you had used and paid an engineer then yes he would be liable for further costs.

Those starters are a real pain to fit in most boats, I avoid jobs like that all the time.

I doubt the ringera will have moved so dont worry on that score, id just take the starter to a proper dealer and show them what you want that way avoiding any further knuckle damage!

 

[tinkicker0]

As you can see in the pics the motors are clearly nothing like for like, at that point id have contacted the supplier, will they take back the new one a you have damaged it.

I doubt you have any redress against the supplier as you fitted it, if you had used and paid an engineer then yes he would be liable for further costs.

Those starters are a real pain to fit in most boats, I avoid jobs like that all the time.

I doubt the ringera will have moved so dont worry on that score, id just take the starter to a proper dealer and show them what you want that way avoiding any further knuckle damage!

Thanks Paul. I am a card carrying engineer of 30 years standing! Doubt he would be able to claim incompetence in a court of law.

However, don't want it ever to reach that far.

You can see from the pics that comparing like for like before fitting as per usual was not possible in this instance as they are too dissimilar to form an opinion of suitability and had to trust the supplier.
The motor was not meant to be like for like, it is sold as the latest hi tech, lighter, smaller, more powerful PMGR motor that is a direct replacement for the older MT10 type. No problems with mounting or pinion engagement, just that extra lip catching the flywheel.

Had an email back from the supplier saying my base timing was out and the crack was the engine kicking back! sheesh! Talk about clutching at straws, no mention of the deep witness mark on the housing.

Now I have recovered from the ordeal of removing, fitting and again removing the damned starters and am feeling less excited, I think I will file away the offending lip to get some flywheel clearance and give it another go.

I have replied to the supplier stating my intention and trusting that in the interests of an amicable settlement, he will honour any warranty issue not directly concerning the modification itself.

It is obvious, now I am thinking clearly that the fragile ring gear itself has not contacted the case and therefore has not been dislodged from its position.

You are right about the fitting though, all has to be done by feel, bolts under the engine and not visible, not possible to get a ratchet handle and socket in, working at arms length, room only far an eighth of a turn of the spanner at a time, have to remove the fuel filter head and lift pump just to get an arm down the side of the motor. Yup I was in a state of high excitement, me knees were killing me and I was not enjoying myself.

Never mind thinks I, I'll get it all back together, then have a brew. Then I turned the key......

Fuel filter off, lift pump disconnected and off, upside down in the bilge again grobbling about for dropped spanners.

and this afternoon, I have to do it all over again

 

[old_salt]

The main difference looks to be the Bendix it looks larger and with more teeth. Also is the housing register the same diameter the protruding Web could be relieved out of the way if everything else fits.
That could answer the "whirrr brum graunch, CRACK!" noises.
Good luck with it.
And I'll bet the old one wont fit on the shaft of new one.

Orrible them under engineoilybilge places, bin there far too often.

Why don't you refurbish the old one especially as you are a TS Gingerbeer thats the first thing I would have done theres now't in it that can't be fixed I am sure.

 

[tinkicker0]

The main difference looks to be the Bendix it looks larger and with more teeth. Also is the housing register the same diameter the protruding Web could be relieved out of the way if everything else fits.
That could answer the "whirrr brum graunch, CRACK!" noises.
Good luck with it.
And I'll bet the old one wont fit on the shaft of new one.

Orrible them under engineoilybilge places, bin there far too often.

Why don't you refurbish the old one especially as you are a TS Gingerbeer thats the first thing I would have done theres now't in it that can't be fixed I am sure.

Only problem with the starter was an occasionally sticking solenoid, 3 or 4 times this season and turning the ignition key on and off a couple of times freed it off.

Was going to just replace the solenoid, measure the brush length, clean / inspect the armature segments and cut back the segment insulators a bit.


SWMBO in a moment of largess said "just buy a new starter, once its done its done and the old un is 15 years old".

Once it's done it's done - famous last words

Amazing that when at work, such problems are not a big deal, but at home on your pride and joy, it's chewed fingernails and oh my golly gosh - 30years of experience and clear thought flown straight out the window.


I have an alternator that was changed last year that just needs new bearings, that I was going to recondition. Been sat in the shed over 12 months now.

Looks like it will be joined by a starter motor for me to think about reconditioning and never getting round to it.


Oh and I will mention - the supplier in question is NOT the popular purveyor of aftermarket Mercruiser and VP parts that often first springs to mind Never had a problem with Don's bits.

The main difference looks to be the Bendix it looks larger and with more teeth. Also is the housing register the same diameter the protruding Web could be relieved out of the way if everything else fits.
That could answer the "whirrr brum graunch, CRACK!" noises.

The distance twixt the centre of the mounting bolt hole and the root of the pinion teeth is the same on both starters (60mm). The tooth pitch is 5mm or so, so i'm guessing 3/16" in old money.

Thanks for the suggestion though.

 

[lovezoo]

Bear in mind this will be much quicker to do second (and third) time.

I have absolutely no idea how I will change mine when it finally goes wrong - other than cutting a hole in the side of the boat, or employing a midget.

 

[tinkicker0]

Bear in mind this will be much quicker to do second (and third) time.

I have absolutely no idea how I will change mine when it finally goes wrong - other than cutting a hole in the side of the boat, or employing a midget.

You are correct, now I am an experienced starter remover and fitter, The motor positively flew on this afternoon. Done and dusted in about 15 minutes.

Looking through the starter mounting hole with torch and mirror, there was galled alloy smeared on the back of the flywheel.

Judicious use of minigrinder and file has effected a suitable cure and the starter now works a treat.

Looks like I dodged a bullet this time.

Dunno what the loud crack was, could not see any damage, so am putting it down to the starter migrating on the mounting bolts.

I got to have my victorious hot choccy aboard after all.

Since I have tomorrow off work, I intend to be spectacularly pissed tonight in celebration.

 

[old_salt]

Good to hear there is a successful out come.
Now to referb the old one course when the new "utility build" one fails it will be there to carry on.
Sorry to be a derge but thats the old fashioned engineer in me.
I bought some Full English 5/16" nuts off ebay the other day dead chuffed I was when they arrived the real business they are.
What a treat to use a stamped 5/16s spanner on them.

I take it your next post will be with glass firmly in hand.
Cheers hic hic.