Who knows about Hydraulic Steering ??

castaway

castaway

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The existing steering on my old Halberdier is incredaby robust and in pretty good shape, however I am thinking of changing to hydraulic for the following reasons:

1) To integrate with a hydraulic self steering system.

2) Most importantly to try to handle the rather excessive amount of rudder feed back that is one of the Halberdiers few failings.

From what I understand hydraulic steering systems do not have any 'feedback' which on most boats is regarded as a fault....but on the Halb would be a 'plus'! What i want is a system whereby I can apply a few degrees of rudder and the helm will hold that angle rather than trying to center its self..

Vetus are one supplier I have found. Any other recomendations?

Any advice welcome.

Nick
 
I have had Hynautic hydraulic steering on my last 2 boats. Never had a prob. Dont know a supplier but if you if you go on web you should find one.You will prob. find that Vetus is made by a company like Hynautic. I have been searching for an electric anchor winch and the one I want is a "tigress" from Vetus and is called "tigres" by Lofrans (the maker) and looks exactly the same.
 
Yes hydraulic systems are usually built with no feedback. This is achieved with check valves effectively sealing the cylinder except when the steering pump applies pressure.
 
Get hold of these guys (commercial interest of a sort, but I can't sell to you anyway) and have a chat to whoever your local agent is. They can supply pumps without lock-valves on all their models, and they also do stupidly robust systems. I understand that they actually invented swash-plate steering-pumps! PM me if you need more info.
 
So if you could just clarify for me...?

Whereas on my Halb, when beating in any sort of breeze, I have to apply 1/4-1/2 a turn of wheel and hold it there...either with aching arms ( or a line to a deck bolt ).
I could just apply the required amount of helm and it would hold ?? Due to the check valves ??

Many thanks Nick
 
Thanks very much for the link....Looks just the sort of thing I'm after....will give it proper attention when I get a moment.

Thanks and regards...Nick
 
That's exactly what a check-valve system does. The thing people forget, though, is that hydraulic steering's exactly like any other kind of steering: there are levers and forces involved. The actual size of the system isn't a reflection of the mechanical advantage: that's the same as the size of the gears in a gearbox. The ratio of pump output to cylinder size is the gear-ratio, while the power the cylinder exerts is a ratio of the "gearing" to the mechanical system: the ratio of the wheel-diameter to the length of the cylinder's tiller-lever. If you're getting whacked by the wheel-forces you might not have enough mechanical advantage: revisit the dimensions of the system.
 
Thanks Yes I understand exactly what you are saying. The benifits for me (and the reason I am looking at this ) is not so much that the boat is heavy on the helm, which she is, but more to take advantage of the 'check valve' arrangement and therefore not have to hold the helm up the whole time, as by my understanding the system only responds to input from the wheel end...not from the rudder end..

BTW I have now ctc LS France

Thanks Nick
 
You've probably looked at this already....

When you mention 'feedback' in your 1st post, do you mean 'weather helm'?

If so, is it worth trying to reduce the weather helm?
 
Well yes of course it is weather helm..but the trouble with the Halberdier is that it is quite a tubby hull with a great big rig.

She is really quite fast, but with 15 degrees or more of heel builds up a considerable amount of weather helm. This results in the poor old helmsman having to fight with the wheel to keep a straight course.

There really isn't a lot one can do about it... even just under genoa she will try to turn up to windward. She has a BIG rudder which does the job of keeping her on course come what may, but it is very hard on the helmsman in a decent breeze.

Hence the idea of having hydraulic steering which does not transfer the effort on the rudder back to the wheel...I think....?

Slightly drastic but in every other way the Halb is a really fab yacht and I suppose if I could learn not to push her so hard the problem would go away !

Regards Nick
 
[ QUOTE ]

She is really quite fast, but with 15 degrees or more of heel builds up a considerable amount of weather helm. This results in the poor old helmsman having to fight with the wheel to keep a straight course.

There really isn't a lot one can do about it...

[/ QUOTE ]

My old Maurice Griffiths Tidewater (gaff cutter) used to exhibit similar behaviour.

Early reefing reduced heel, virtually eliminated the heavy weather helm, and, the real bonus, she went faster (the drag of her barge type rudder must have been immense).
 
[ QUOTE ]
So if you could just clarify for me...?

Whereas on my Halb, when beating in any sort of breeze, I have to apply 1/4-1/2 a turn of wheel and hold it there...either with aching arms ( or a line to a deck bolt ).
I could just apply the required amount of helm and it would hold ?? Due to the check valves ??

Many thanks Nick

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats the theory but not always the practise. Had a Prout cat to which I fitted a Vetus rotary steering pump. The pump worked fine but there was always a slight weep beteen the two chambers of the ram, so the steering would stay in position long enough for a tack but not for hours.

Hydraulics took all the fun out of helming the boat - the one thing I really like about my presenbt boat is the rod steering and the feedback. But I suspect that a Halbardier is not the sort of boat you fight over the helm anyway

vetus pump was fine. System was reliable.
 
I had hydraulic steering in a long keel victory 40. Some of them had a torque tube - rods with universal joints. It was a great system as all you needed to steer was a trim tab, as it always wanted to go straiight. It was the Vetis system - very robust as well.

However when it comes to self steering, any hydraulic system will suffer from some creep, which means you may have to adjust the main rudder from time to time.

My vote would be for hydraulic, with a hydraulic drive for the autopilot as well.
 
I like my Vetus hydraulic steering, but to clear up a few points:

As standard, it did not have check valves, so there IS some feedback.
I also have "wheel creep", which I am told is common in hydraulic systems.
One of the five cylinders of the pump has a tendency to take a holiday, leaving me with a wheel that does nothing for 72 degrees!
It does not like my Autohelm Wheel Pilot, and the feeling is mutual.

I would not be tempted to return to the cable system as built-in by Westerly. It was stiff and needed a good force on the wheel to turn it. It would hold that position against anything the rudder could do however. In contrast, the hydraulic system is finger-light on the helm under any conditions I have experienced.
 
Hydraulic steering is not going to cure the basic problem of balance, only mask it. There are many, potentially cheaper and more effective ways of reducing load on the helm. Rebalancing the rig to move the centre of effort further forward is one way. Bowsprit or reduced mainsail areas are the normal way. The other way is to look at changing the shape of the rudder, particularly building in balance area forward of the pivot if it is possible. Typically the area forward can be up to 15% of the total area.

As NealB says much of the problem of weather helm on buxom shallowish draft keel boats is down to having too much sail up. Roller reefing and inmast reefing allow finer control over sail areas to achieve balance, but the latter is an unhappy and expensive retrofit.
 
Yes I wouldn't disagree with you...

Unfortunately its not a rig problem, but as Neal B says a basic design issue with many boats of this type.

I have visited all the various options...a few Halberdiers do have bowsprits, but balancing the rudder is not feasable.

I guess learning to live with the limitations would be the easiest way to go...I did talk to Alan Hill the designer about it a year or so back and I suggested a bit more ballast down in the 'well' under the engine might help...he thought that was a reasonable idea.

Regards Nick
 
My tuppence worth.....
I had a Vetus system fitted to my boat when I bought her (it was not original however but retro fitted by previous owner)
I removed the system and went back to tiller for two reasons.
1. No feedback ( I felt that I wanted it)
2. The system was badly installed

The faults weren't with the Vetus kit. The other problem was that it had been fitted with the 175 cl cylinder and took 6 turns lock to lock, OK for a motor boat with a small wheel but no good for a yacht with a 70 odd inch wheel. I changed down to a 72cl cylinder and got it down to 2.5 turns, so don't be tempted to go for a big cylinder just to gain mechanical advantage! I kept the cylinder and electric pump so that I could keep the auto pilot which works fine.

You only need check valves if you have more than one steering position, be that two wheels or one wheel and an auto pilot.
 
I have autohelm and have shortened the hydraulic pipes. They are plastic pipes with braided covering. The ends are clenched with a copper ferrule. I cannot find anyone who can supply and clench new ferrules. Raytheon gave me the name of Hypro, but they are a huge firm in USA. Can anyone help?
 
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