Poignard
Well-Known Member
Good work, Gerry! You should be very proud of that.
Who can make me a sprayhood by copying the old one?
- Thread starter webcraft
- Start date
IvorClarke
New Member
Try Tim Phipps at website "Stitch and fix it"
Local to North East Scotland.
He will repair or renew.
Just a satisfied customer
Local to North East Scotland.
He will repair or renew.
Just a satisfied customer
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
Non-marine specialists probably have much more year-round work and don't have to make most of their profits in the first three months of the year.
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately we don't, as far as I know, have any local sailmakers. I believe that both Kirkcudbright SC and Solway YC have in the past arranged for Clyde-based sailmakers to send someone down for measuring sessions. Maybe worth suggesting something like that?
jaybee63
Well-Known Member
I would question whether they are likely to use UV stabilised thread, whether they would buy a full cop of thread for one job or use what they have on the shelf. Upholstery thread is not as strong. Same apples to window materials, would any window material do. Would the canvas be the dearer coated version, I often see cheaper uncoated used on work produced by companies not specialising in cover making. I had an owner in output factory the other week where all the lift the dot studs on her boat were corroding as they were nickel plated, we use stainless steel studs.
Would they zip all the pockets and track?
I'm not knocking anyone's work, just saying there are reasons some companies are cheaper. Just a few pointers
John
www.tecsew.com
Would they zip all the pockets and track?
I'm not knocking anyone's work, just saying there are reasons some companies are cheaper. Just a few pointers
John
www.tecsew.com
Last edited:
Poignard
Well-Known Member
jaybee. What do you think about making a new sprayhood using the old as a pattern? If asked, would you do it?
ksutton
Well-Known Member
John, thanks for explaining some of the hidden reasons why a well made spray hood can be costly. I am also in the market for a new spray hood and in the process of getting quotes. I am finding that the location of your boat effects the costs big time. I understand that travelling a couple of hours to take measurements and a return visit for professional installation can be very time consuming and costly. The problem is when the measuring and installation part of the quote comes to 30% of the manufacturing cost, you can well visualise why so many people on here want to do it themselves or ask why it cant be made from the old pattern.
There can be no substitute "in my mind" to have it professionally measured, made and installed against going down the DIY route, but these additional travel costs are putting many people off.
Gerry
Well-Known Member
Well I can't totally agree that there is no substitute for 'professional' make. We have managed to complete the task to our total satisfaction. We had 29 individual pieces and used a LOT of basting tape! It did take some time and we did a lot of research before we began- purchasing a 4 hour video from Sailrite in the USA that gave us a good basic grounding in technique. We copied the existing hood in terms of construction but created our own pattern. Actually that was the most challenging part of the project- waiting for a calm day to do the work on deck!
Kayospruce in Hampshire supply all the ingredients-from UV resistant thread to stainless steel fixings.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
All you are doing with statements like this is demonstrate how little you know about running such a business. Just to be clear, John at Tecsew, for example is not a sailmaker. He only makes covers and sprayhoods.
It is irrelevant whether the manufacturer makes sales, lorry covers, household furnishings, caravan awnings or whatever. Between 30-40% of the cost is the raw materials, the rest is labour and overheads. A significant part of the labour is in making the patterns and fitting, particularly if it is a one off. so only 3 things affect the cost - the quality of the materials and fittings, the number of hours the job takes and the hourly rate. So, a simple copy of existing panels using the lowest spec material by somebody who has a low hourly rate will be cheap. A custom design using the best materials, fitted to the boat will cost more. Whether the business has year round work is irrelevant as it still needs to cover its costs and make a profit to stay in business. The business may well use incentives to encourage work in slack periods to spread its load - but costs are the same year round.
Suggest you go into one of the makers to see how far your analysis is away from reality. As many posters here have identified, sprayhoods cost a lot of money because they are complex things to make and can use expensive materials. It is not difficult to see the difference between a "cheap" one and the best. It is also possible to reduce costs by DIY because of the high labour content, but as you see from the examples it is not for the faint hearted.
However, not possible (as was claimed in one post) for anybody in business to make a profit to sell one at a "fraction" of the "going" rate, whatever their main line of business.
ksutton
Well-Known Member
Well done Gerry, but I think you will find you may probably be one of the 10% or less of boat owners who would have the time, patience, skill and additional help to accomplish a satisfactory result. There is also the problem of having access to the right kind of sewing machine.
Incidentally would you be willing to give us an idea of material costs, excluding any stainless work and what size of boat? as a better comparison against having it done by a dedicated company.
doug748
Well-Known Member
For a recover, material costs will be c £100 retail if you re-use some of the buckles and bows, I have been looking at it a little bit.
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
You have, alas, completely missed the point of my post, which was not in any respect a criticism of the prices charged for sprayhoods.
Where a business has year-round work completely relevant. A business which has to rely on custom which comes in over a limited period is always going to have to charge more than one which has year-round business. That's why sailmakers often offer big discounts in the autumn, why hotels offer deals during school term times and why firework displays cost less the further you get from November 5th.
Many marine businesses are restricted in this way, and so the have to charge more than businesses which have a more even spread of business round the year. That doesn't make them bad, or incompetent, or dishonest; it simply explains why marine stuff often costs more than the non-marine equivalent.
There used to be an interesting parallel with car manufacture. In the days when 40% of UK cars were sold in early August, UK manufacturers used to have to stockpile months' worth of production to meet that demand whereas larger international manufacturers could simply swap their production lines from LHD to RHD for a few weeks. British manufacturers had higher costs and crippled cashflow as a result, which is why they lobbied to change the registration system.
jaybee63
Well-Known Member
I agree wholeheartedly with all points in Tranonas post.
It's always worth going to see your cover maker and look at older examples of their work on the marina to see how they stand up. I know our Sprayhoods cost more than £100 in materials and I would guess this is the case with many fabricators. We know the reasons why we spec dearer materials, durability and service, we don't purchase the cheapest fabrics available.
Tecsew supply many new boat importers and were suppliers on brands such as Southerly for over 30 years and Westerly for the last 10 years. With our retail customers we supply the same spec as we would on a new Bavaria, Beneteau, Dehler, Dufour, Hanse Jeanneau, Legend etc.
The more you pay for a new sewing machine, the heavier the thread it will sew with, we use a 20 metric and a standard "industrial" sewing machine won't take this size of thread.
With regards to using old hoods as patterns, we would never recommend it. You are taking a chance on the quality of fit and if anything goes wrong will probably be told it's an exact copy of the old hood. On any recover we always CAD measure or check measurements against patterns held as CAD files on our database.
Some clients may have brought their old hood into us so we could check against CAD patterns held on files. It's often the case that we supplied the original and we use the old hood to verify that it's our standard design as we also supply custom designs to dealers.
We also have CAD patterns for many recovers for the original factory supplied hood on brands such as Beneteau and Jeanneau. The old hood will help us verify we have the correct design. For example we know on the Oceanis 323 there were 3 different supplied versions of the factory installed hood.
With certain companies we supplied such as Moody (at the very end) Premier and Northshore we were not allowed to badge up our work, but again we can check from photos possibly or having the original hood.
John
www.tecsew.com
Solwaycruiser
Well-Known Member
Hi Paul, There is a local business doing canvas work in the SW Scotland called Fabricworks. There is a flyer in the shoreside block at Kirkcudbright Marina. Her name is Anna Milne and stays not too far away. I have phone number if you want it just PM me. She is in the process of repairing a pack a main for me.
Gerry
Well-Known Member
OK. The boat is a 40 footer, the sprayhood has a small windscreen area and is pretty aerodynamic compared to a lot of other ones I see in the marina.
We used an ancient Singer 99K manual machine- was actually excellent when fitted with a leather working needle and UV resistant thread. It cost us £25 from ebay! The four small areas that the machine could not cope with we resorted to a speedy-stitcher.
Thread we already had onboard as we did the fabric-Sunbrella. Estimate that we used around 8 metres.Our hood is pretty complex with a lot of additional strengthening points and facings.
Incidentals from Kayospruce included webbing, vinyl edging, pattern making plastic, windscreen, stiffening, zips, grommets ( we added a laced adjuster on the frame) and a special tool for attatching grommets, basting tape. The bill there was around £180.
We made detailed drawings so that we could work out n what order to assemble the pieces. Only made one error when we put the first zip in the wrong way round...
You are correct- it's not for the faint hearted but if you have the time and inclination it is perfectly possible. I certainly think the canvas workers earn their money....
The new hood is up and currently experiencing 50 knot winds straight through it- it's doing well so far!
ksutton
Well-Known Member
John contrary to what you say above I have a Vancouver 34C, Northshore built and it is definitely badged TecSew. Actually I am awaiting a reply to an emai from last Wednesday with photos I sent to Ally answering a question that she had put to me.
I am also puzzled with a spray hood quote I got from another very well known company (located not far from Chichester). They quoted three prices and qualities.
"Basic"
"A mid quality"
and a "top quality"
They said it depends on what quality material and build I wanted! There was something like £400 difference between the basic quality and the top quality version. Can it be that there would be a £400 difference in material costs alone? their quote has me very confused. Appears they don't hide the saying from customers "you pays your money and gets your choice" Also they offer a discount for anyone who collects and self installs!!
All I want is a company who will measure, produce and fit a spray hood, to the same spec or better than the old one which has lasted 14 years, at a competitive price, during a four week time frame that I have in May.
Last edited:
jaybee63
Well-Known Member
It was from the time when Lester took over at Northshore that we were asked to stop badging up our work. Our labels are fairly discreet compared to some competitors, but they wanted no exterior label.
We also supply some work where the label states supplied by the name of the boat dealer with no reference to ourselves.
In terms of different qualities, I have never had any interest in this approach and we have always strived to be the best and offer the best spec products. It's for our customers to decide where our product stands in the market place compared to others, but our aim is to be the best at what we do and we task out staff with the same goal and this includes customer service.
We use Sunbrella plus as standard, not an optional cost upgrade. All pockets are zipped, as well as long lengths of track. A pulling band, some terms termed finger strip is standard as well as top quality thread.
I guess if your last hood has lasted 14 years, that says a lot and the materials and construction methods we use now are far improved.
Has any one here ever bemoaned taking a Sprayhood of its frame and sliding out the track on the boat for a repair?. How much easier if zipped.
And this is not to mention removing a grab bar which is bolted through the canvas, this takes more time to remove and reinstall than most repairs. Our grab rails are welded and the canvas zip removes. Even if we do a recover for a hood with a bolted on grab rail made originally by a competitor, we will make the canvas zip remove so no need to remove the grab rail in future.
There's so much more that could be explained, but at least that's a few pointers. We will loose out on work where someone wants a very basic spec, but that's not where we want to be. I'd rather have clients come back after their canvas has given them years of service rather than being bought back for continual restitching.
John
jaybee63
Well-Known Member
Just on a point on why spec can have such an impact on prices.
A 2 bar Sprayhood will have 2 pockets which will be closed with one row of stitching per pocket. That's 2 rows. When zipped, we double sew the Zips bothe sides, so that's 4 rows per zip, 2 pockets equates to 8 rows.
Some companies may only single stitch the Zips, if added, we don't. So 2 rows has become 8 rows plus cost of zips.
If there are long lengths of track, not the case on a Van 34, these would be zip attached with Velcro closure, so again more stitching, more time..
If you want an insight into our work, here's a link to our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/Tecsew
Why not like us while there. There are plenty of photos taken in the factory showing production as well as videos.
John
A 2 bar Sprayhood will have 2 pockets which will be closed with one row of stitching per pocket. That's 2 rows. When zipped, we double sew the Zips bothe sides, so that's 4 rows per zip, 2 pockets equates to 8 rows.
Some companies may only single stitch the Zips, if added, we don't. So 2 rows has become 8 rows plus cost of zips.
If there are long lengths of track, not the case on a Van 34, these would be zip attached with Velcro closure, so again more stitching, more time..
If you want an insight into our work, here's a link to our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/Tecsew
Why not like us while there. There are plenty of photos taken in the factory showing production as well as videos.
John
anderson
Well-Known Member
we had the same problem cost we found a company who makes sheets for hgv side cutains ect tey made a copy from the old frame for less than £100
ksutton
Well-Known Member
Very helpful, thank you.