Whitworth or imperial

[STATUE]

Refurbishing a 65 year old sailing cruiser.
Thinking of buying a tap & die set, but which.
Also do you know where I can buy such bolts and nuts?

 

[coopec]

Have you tried

Leyton Fasteners
9-15 Cook St, Ellesmere Port CH65 4AU, United Kingdom



https://www.leytonfasteners.co.uk/obsolete-fasteners/

This crowd has a mail order service too:

Imperial Nuts and Bolts
https://shop.imperialnutsandbolts.com/about-us-contact/

 

[Kukri]

Whitworth or BSF

Anglia Stainless. Phone to discuss. They carry a huge range of bronze copper etc.

https://www.angliastainless.co.uk/

 

[RichardS]

Refurbishing a 65 year old sailing cruiser.
Thinking of buying a tap & die set, but which.
Also do you know where I can buy such bolts and nuts?

If it's the original 1954 engine it will be imperial if it was manufactured in the UK. If it's a European, outside the UK, manufacturer it will be metric.

Of course, if the engine has been changed it could be either, although I would guess 99% that it is metric.

Richard

 

[pcatterall]

In my ignorance I thought that Whiteworth and BSF were both imperial !
I thought that BSF had 'fine' threads as suggested and that whiteworth were coarse.
I thought that when I worked on my old motor bikes in the 1950s that threads into say aloy casings were Whiteworth and 'ordinary bolt' bsf !!

 

[RichardS]

In my ignorance I thought that Whiteworth and BSF were both imperial !
I thought that BSF had 'fine' threads as suggested and that whiteworth were coarse.
I thought that when I worked on my old motor bikes in the 1950s that threads into say aloy casings were Whiteworth and 'ordinary bolt' bsf !!

Whitworth and BSF, and anything with BS in front of it, is imperial.

Richard

 

[penberth3]

In my ignorance I thought that Whiteworth and BSF were both imperial !
I thought that BSF had 'fine' threads as suggested and that whiteworth were coarse.
I thought that when I worked on my old motor bikes in the 1950s that threads into say aloy casings were Whiteworth and 'ordinary bolt' bsf !!

If the boat's only 65 years old, I'd also expect to find UNC and UNF on various components.

 

[JumbleDuck]

If the boat's only 65 years old, I'd also expect to find UNC and UNF on various components.

Indeed. Triumph - for example - changed over from BSF/BSW to UNF/UNC in the fifties. Morris Minors were BSF/BSW till the bitter end, but I am pretty sure that Minis were always UNF/UNC.

 

[lw395]

There could be all sorts on various fittings.
BSW, BSF, UNC, UNF.
BA
Metric
BSP

BA seems to turn up quite often for anything made of brass and about 1/4in or smaller.

 

[Kukri]

If you really want to have fun, try an older Whitlock Mamba steering gear with various old repairs. Don't ask me how I know this.

 

[Humblebee]

Have you considered investing in a set of thread gauges? Shouldn't be too expensive and could save a lot of unfortunate mistakes.

 

[Daydream believer]

Have you considered investing in a set of thread gauges? Shouldn't be too expensive and could save a lot of unfortunate mistakes.

That is the best advice. I have one whitworth thread gauge & one metric & it does all I need for model engineering etc
When you need anything buy taps and dies as you need them from Tracy tools. They will also supply a catalogue, with a useful thread & tapping table on the back (I use it quite a lot but there are many online) A firm that many model engineers use as their products are good quality. For better quality taps & dies go for HSS rather than carbon steel.
Cheap sets such as you see from Presto etc are not worth the bother & you are paying for sizes you do not need. My Whitworth set cost the equivalent of £hundreds & I have had it for 50 years & there are still some that I have not used & some that I have had to replace several times as they are the ones I used all the time
For UNC & UNF plus metric I would use these suppliers. They also do a wide range of stainless in metric sizes at competitive prices. I do not think that they do Whitworth. BSF is whitworth tooth form but fine pitch.
https://www.westfieldfasteners.co.uk/ScrewBolt_M.html?gclid=CIKIrYq5-88CFYefGwodivgFqQ

 

[PuffTheMagicDragon]

Have you considered investing in a set of thread gauges? Shouldn't be too expensive and could save a lot of unfortunate mistakes.

I agree.
Both will have the threads per inch or the pitch stamped on the blades. The angle of the thread on the Metric gauge will be 60^o as will the one for American threads (UNF and UNC) but the t.p.i or the pitch will aid in identifying the thread. In the unlikely case where the angle of the thread does not fit you are faced with BSF or BSW (e.g. on old British engines), in which case you might find it a problem in finding replacement fasteners. Metric and UNF/UNC are available everywhere.

 

[Keith 66]

Some Morris sidevalve engines used an early french metric bolt thread profile once used by Vickers the arms manufacturer, Small bmw disels had their gearboxes held on with whitworth bolts! Im sure BL used every thread profile know to man & some that werent.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Some Morris sidevalve engines used an early french metric bolt thread profile once used by Vickers the arms manufacturer, Small bmw disels had their gearboxes held on with whitworth bolts! Im sure BL used every thread profile know to man & some that werent.

Until the end of the DS Citroën used a pre-standardisation M5 - I think is 0.75mm pitch, while standard M5 is 0.8 or 0.5. Fasteners to fit are horribly expensive.

 

[coopec]

These make interesting reading.

https://www.philholdenfasteners.co.uk/evolution-screw-threads/

https://www.fastenerdata.co.uk/threads

 

[PCUK]

Also to make things easier buy a "Metrinch" (not metric) socket and spanner set as these will fit everything?

 

[[176172]]

There could be all sorts on various fittings.
BSW, BSF, UNC, UNF.
BA
Metric
BSP

BA seems to turn up quite often for anything made of brass and about 1/4in or smaller.

Brought up as an engineering apprentice with all of those, and the amazing stories surrounding the man himself, Whitworth.
I recently had the task of explaining to a good Swedish friend what an AF spanner is.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Brought up as an engineering apprentice with all of those, and the amazing stories surrounding the man himself, Whitworth.

There is good article about him at https://interestingengineering.com/sir-joseph-whitworth-master-of-screws and his measuring machine (to ¹/_10,000") is in the Science Museum. A remarable man, though Maudsley's contribution should be acknowledged more.

I recently had the task of explaining to a good Swedish friend what an AF spanner is.

Aren't all modern spanners AF? The only non-AF ones I have are BSW/BSF.

 

[RichardS]

Aren't all modern spanners AF? The only non-AF ones I have are BSW/BSF.

That's an interesting point JD.

When I was in my early teen spannering days with my Dad, he used to refer to spanners as either being Whitworth, AF or metric. So my Dad would say, please pass me the 1/2 inch AF to distinguish it from the 1/2 inch Whitworth. Metric stood as a separate new fangled concept and would simply be referred to as 13mm.

I guess that times have changed in the last 50 years. :ambivalence:

Richard