Whither the whole yacht market

[doris]

In the OP my original intention was to see where people thought the market was headed in relation to the big manufacturers and the associated brokers/dealers. Interesting to see where the thread has drifted to.
I still wonder whether one, or more, of the big manufacturers will have gone bust by the end of next year with the same applying to the big brokerage firms.
I would be very nervous of leaving any deposit with one of them, even in a supposed ‘client account’.

 

[Praxinoscope]

Concerto, Fulmar and Contessa are chalk & cheese, I have sailed on both, the Fulmar is roomy, plenty of room for crew and can be fitted out very comfortably down below, they also provide a good turn of speed, the Contessa is very dated below, I think cramped is a reasonable description, but if I were choosing a boat purely on the way it handles and pleasure of helming it, then the Contessa is a dream and it's not that slow either except in very light winds. I'm not saying the Fulmar isn't pleasant to sail but for pure sailing pleasure I preferred the Contessa to the Fulmar.

 

[Tranona]

I would be very nervous of leaving any deposit with one of them, even in a supposed ‘client account’.

Not difficult to check that the client account is secure. Most follow the ABYA model and what you need to see is the account number and evidence that the deposit was made directly linked to your name.

However, it is rare for a dealer in new boats to hold deposits for new boats as the funds will be required to secure the build at the factory. You may be able to get a partial BoS, but unlikely for a deposit on a boat to be built in the future as there is nothing to hold title for!.

I was fortunate with my new boat purchase as nearly 50% of the payment was for my old boat, so the amount that was at risk (deposit and first payment) was relatively small and for only a short period.

 

[Paulfireblade]

I was quoted six months lead time from order to delivery from one of the volume manufacturers mentioned so it sounds like demand is definitely easing

 

[jac]

Oh shut up.
A first-year Gen X

3rd year Gen X myself!!! - These boomers eh??

 

[Whaup367]

Does this bode well for current owners of middle aged well-cared-for boats?

If new prices are and continue to be high and restricting supply, perhaps it will buoy up prices for good auld boats. Assuming anyone can afford them at all, that is.

 

[lustyd]

He did not say it was good value, just a bargain compared with the HR - but that sort of price differential has always been there,. An HR (new) is always 70% or so more than a similar spec AWB of similar size

Which is weird given how HR lags in design and tech by decades. They’re gradually catching up but I feel Jeanneau and Benneteau are pulling away fast

 

[Tranona]

Which is weird given how HR lags in design and tech by decades. They’re gradually catching up but I feel Jeanneau and Benneteau are pulling away fast

They inhabit different sectors of the market and like other successful builders they design their boats to match the expectations of their target markets. Somebody prepared to pay the 70%+ premium for an HR would not consider the mass producers as an alternative.

While it is true that they have in recent times followed some of the design developments of cheaper boats their execution is at a different level. If it were comparable nobody would pay the premium. It is not a question of "catching up" - their designer is at the top of his game and can design a boat to the brief he is given.

 

[ylop]

At the boat show I was staggered by the price of new sailing boats.

37/38 foot Ben/Bav/Jen/Duf sailers seem to be about £280k genuine sail away with a sensible level of toys, 40/41 footers about £390k. New Benny was £368k plus a few toys special show offer.
On this basis a new boat is 2 1/2 times the price of a ten year old boat. In cash terms that means one could buy a ten year old well found boat, spend £20k seriously sprucing it up and have £200k in the bank plus a very nice boat.
Add to this some people would suggest that the latest boats are very ‘Ikea’ down below compared to the older boats, something I would agree with but then I admit I am a tad biased.

How is this sustainable? There’s a thread on the racing forum about crews and the nature of todays weekend sailing. Add in the extraordinary costs of new boats and how long before there’s a collapse of at least one out of the Beneteau Group, Hanse, Dufour, or Bavaria.

People prefer to charter newer boats so probably not likely to see a massive drop in demand at the c40ft size

I think one overlooked factor here is demographics. the youngest Baby Boomers are 59 this year - The oldest are nearly 80. There can't be many more to retire, take a lump sum, downsize the house, inherit from own parents and find they have a spare few hundred k.

Younger generations are fewer in number and have less generous pensions, have not benefitted from as much house / asset inflation, have kids that will need extensive financial support through university / house buying.

there older boomers are starting to die off leaving inheritance to their children who’s own children have probably already fledged the nest and in the demographics likely to be buying new boats have paid off mortgages and got healthy pensions. The chat I hear suggests there may be some dilemma as to what to do with the inheritance (use, keep, pass on now) but I hear enough people stressing about inheritance tax (which for a typical property owning boomer couple is £1M combined) that there’s clearly still plenty of money circulating amounts the “haves”. The “have nots” have never been buying new boats.

 

[lustyd]

While it is true that they have in recent times followed some of the design developments of cheaper boats their execution is at a different level. If it were comparable nobody would pay the premium. It is not a question of "catching up" - their designer is at the top of his game and can design a boat to the brief he is given

I have to disagree. The woodwork might be a little nicer but everything the AWB has been lambasted for has been slowly copied from keels, rudders, removing bulkheads through the use of a stronger bonded grid, cockpit layout. All eventually copied and put forward as HR innovating. Their production methods have also followed the industry despite many claiming the AWBs methods lead to light and fragile hulls.
The reality is the French are ahead of the game and can afford to innovate thanks to their volume. Sure, the fit out uses cheaper material but still stands the test of time.
I do agree they aren’t in the same market. The reasons though are generational, with older folk seeking out traditional designs and dark interiors. That is changing I guess because the new generation of older folk grew up with AWBs

 

[doug748]

This is a fun overview of HalbergRassyGate. It goes on a bit but the opening is entertaining:

.

 

[Tranona]

I have to disagree. The woodwork might be a little nicer but everything the AWB has been lambasted for has been slowly copied from keels, rudders, removing bulkheads through the use of a stronger bonded grid, cockpit layout. All eventually copied and put forward as HR innovating. Their production methods have also followed the industry despite many claiming the AWBs methods lead to light and fragile hulls.
The reality is the French are ahead of the game and can afford to innovate thanks to their volume. Sure, the fit out uses cheaper material but still stands the test of time.
I do agree they aren’t in the same market. The reasons though are generational, with older folk seeking out traditional designs and dark interiors. That is changing I guess because the new generation of older folk grew up with AWBs

As you know I bought a new Bavaria, but could have afforded an HR of similar size - one of the "modern" ones but could not justify the premium to myself. However there are clearly people who can justify it. As to design and construction, just about all the premium builders have gone down the same route as HR in bringing in newer features. It is not a question of "copying" but following what their target customers are looking for. The production builders do not have a monopoly on either design or production methods, although as you say volume may make it easier to adopt new production methods. Most of the top designers are capable of moving with the times and designing boats with new features - in fact many are leaders even though they have been designing "traditional" boats for years - if the client wants them.

There will always be a place for "premium" products - the trick is to ensure that what is offered is sufficient to justify the premium.

 

[B27]

....

There will always be a place for "premium" products - the trick is to ensure that what is offered is sufficient to justify the premium.

Very true, bearing in mind you only have to justify the premium to the people who are actually likely to buy the product. Range Rover don't care if Sandero drivers think Range Rovers are overpriced tat.
Many of the people who can afford to buy the premium product are not that sensitive to how big the price premium is.

 

[lustyd]

Ok I may need to backtrack a little. Our boat is a well built 1999 model and we’ve looked at new Jeanneau at the boat show among others. The build quality is excellent. Today we viewed a 2010 Jeanneau and it was knackered already and clearly due to poor build quality so I do see where the reputation may come from. Suffice to say we didn’t make an offer.
I do stand by my statement though, HR build a quality version of the state of the art from 20 years ago. That’s fine and yes there’s a market but for me I’d prefer to benefit from up to date design if spending the money. I will accept it’s what their customers are asking for but there’s no denying they are consistently making older designs both hull and interior. Had they stuck to older old designs one could argue it was because the design is better, but they have adopted everything their customer base sneered at 20 years ago!

 

[dunedin]

I do stand by my statement though, HR build a quality version of the state of the art from 20 years ago. That’s fine and yes there’s a market but for me I’d prefer to benefit from up to date design if spending the money.

Have you seen a recent HR? Coincidentally there was a new model HR 50 in the marina hoist when I passed - couldn’t see the interior, which I am sure was lovely.
But it had a nice keel with a deep bulb keeping the weight low, twin rudders, retractable bow thrusters at bow and stern, wide but not too extreme stern, bowsprit for asymmetric etc. Didn’t look a 20 year old design.
Also had fixed roof over front of cockpit to provide secure dry space on watch.
Don’t think it had carbon spars, but that is an option I believe.
Suspect not AWB price though.

 

[Praxinoscope]

I have always worked on the following principles when buying equipment,
Don't buy the first or second production, can almost guarantee that there will be some unexpected snags in it that until put into production weren't noticed, go for third, fourth fifth production run, snags will have been ironed out but cost cutting measures not yet introduced, after about the sixth production run ways of cutting production costs by reducing specifications have been found but which may not necessarily be immediately noticeable to the buyer.

 

[Tranona]

Ok I may need to backtrack a little. Our boat is a well built 1999 model and we’ve looked at new Jeanneau at the boat show among others. The build quality is excellent. Today we viewed a 2010 Jeanneau and it was knackered already and clearly due to poor build quality so I do see where the reputation may come from. Suffice to say we didn’t make an offer.
I do stand by my statement though, HR build a quality version of the state of the art from 20 years ago. That’s fine and yes there’s a market but for me I’d prefer to benefit from up to date design if spending the money. I will accept it’s what their customers are asking for but there’s no denying they are consistently making older designs both hull and interior. Had they stuck to older old designs one could argue it was because the design is better, but they have adopted everything their customer base sneered at 20 years ago!

So, it is really down to your personal preference.

What you term "state of the art" may just be fashion. Not all developments stand the test of time. HR are a conservative company serving a conservative clientele and their deigns are expected to last many years so it is not surprising that they are slower to adopt new ideas.

 

[dunedin]

I have always worked on the following principles when buying equipment,
Don't buy the first or second production, can almost guarantee that there will be some unexpected snags in it that until put into production weren't noticed, go for third, fourth fifth production run, snags will have been ironed out but cost cutting measures not yet introduced, after about the sixth production run ways of cutting production costs by reducing specifications have been found but which may not necessarily be immediately noticeable to the buyer.

Isn’t this just the production version of the old adage - build the first one for your enemy, the second for your friend, and the third for yourself. (Oops, hope Coopec doesn’t read this!)

 

[Humblebee]

You are talking about 40ft yachts, but at the show I chatted to many people who cannot afford a new 30ft yacht which costs about £200,000 in full trim. Their only option is to buy secondhand. Over the past decade virtually no boats of this size have been produced, this will have a long term effect on the market. Many marinas and harbours are suffering a shortage of berths for larger yachts, yet there are vacancies for smaller yachts. Having been onboard for most of the show on the 40 year old Westerly Konsort, which is only 29ft, and the number of visitors who commented on the build quality and seaworthy interior. Many also commented they disliked how stark and open the interiors are, let alone how much they bounced in the choppy waters. These modern boats sit on the water like a cork, not sit in the water like the Konsort. This particular Konsort had crossed the Atlantic in the ARC, but I very much doubt anyone would use the Oceanis 30.1 to do the same voyage.

Some people have said I was mad to spend so much money on renovating my 1980 Westerly Fulmar, I would never get it back. 10 years ago I considered buying a new 32ft yacht and I was looking at £180,000. Instead I bought a 33 year old boat and it has now cost me about £52,000 with no labour. It has been worth it to me as some of the balance was invested in a flat for my daughter at university that I received a fair rent and made a nice profit when I sold it. Most of this has paid for the renovation. Someone asked me what I though a new Fulmar would cost new today. Being a mainly hand built boat with lots of teak onboard, probably about a quarter of a million upward in full trim with VAT. The GT325 costs £235,00 plus VAT and is slightly larger. I have been told there is a new Contessa 32 currently in build. I hate to think what that will cost the owner when he could have bought an older one and spent £60,000 to £80,000 getting it renovated. When you compare the Fulmar with the Contessa, you can see how small she is in these photos taken last week in Ocean Village.

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Talking with an owner of a town house in Ocean Village that has a berth included with the house. It is only a 10m berth, so 32ft or under only. There is very little to choose from in that size even on the secondhand market due to the continually increasing length of the majority of new boats going back several decades.

I agree with Concerto, a seaworthy hull, engine and propeller count for more than the latest fashions or production methods for the interior.
There is also an environmentally perspective. On other threads we have seen the problems old, disused boats can cause. Hulls are nigh indestructible, well maintained will last decades, restoring an interior is perhaps within our own abilities. Restoring old boats is better for the environment!

 

[ashtead]

We went on the newish HR 400 at SIBs ( ac version) and could certainly see the quality below and it has few rivals even today surely and if you are seeking a centre cockpit version what’s out there to rival an HR today? Nothing wrong with a Dufour 41 but only an aft cockpit model. It’s just most perhaps don’t want to pay out the extra £200k I guess. Maybe an arcona or an xc but again aft cockpit - the days of Bavaria oceans and bigger Moodys seem long gone in field of centre cockpits.