White vinegar ( or alternative) for heads?

[blenkinsop]

Hydrochloric acid is also sold in some areas labelled muriatic acid.

 

[pcatterall]

Thanks all. Richard and VicS I have copied your info and the large diagram and will stick it in the hand book.
I was not getting down to the correct valve and contrary to what I said that valve is part of my spares kit and will be changed.
Thanks all for the many tips regarding 'descaling' liquids.

 

[Neeves]

Its part No 16 that may be damaged by HCl, but to do so you need to leave to soak for a prolonged period (which might be necessary if badly clogged with salts) The acid makes it swell, it then wrinkles and does not seal properly. As mentioned we simply made replacements.

We can buy from any hardware store, in 4l black plastic bottles, HCl, here in Oz, described as 30%, it is certainly powerful, fumes and should only be used in fresh air. Even diluted 2 parts water to 1 of acid its still powerful. For a toilet I'd be looking at 10:1 (edit and putting that 10:1 into a bowl filled with water close edit).

Jonathan

 

[thinwater]

In testing for Practical Sailor I learned that the Rairitan joker valves are interchangable with the Jabsco joker valves and last 3-5 times longer. They also resist leakage due to scale better for some reason. The materials is nitrile, vs neoprene in Jabsco. I have a Jabsco head but switched to Rairitan joker valves.

If I was going to use strong acid on a toilet I would strip it down first. Too many vulnerable parts. I'd probably take the hose off, but mine are easy to get at. Also easier if you avoid that damn white PVC hose.

 

[alanwilson]

Bit late with this thread, but hope this helps.

Do not use hydrochloric (muriatic) acid: it is a strong acid & will attack most metals and rubbers. "Strong" and "Weak" refer to how aggressive the acid is: if you get a strong acid in your eyes you are likely to be permanently blinded. Sulphuric acid (drain cleaner) is the acid of choice for people who throw acid in other people's faces: it is another strong acid but has much worse & immediate action on skin. Neither should be anywhere on a boat (or even in a home) unless you know exactly what you are doing and what the consequences will be.

Citric acid is a weak acid and can safely be used to de-fur kettles, toilet pipes, engine sea-water cooling systems etc. If you get it on your skin, just wash it off; if in the eyes, wash with running water for at least 10 minutes and you may save your sight. You can buy it in crystals online very cheaply. For a kettle, put 3 teaspoons in, top up with water & boil: leave for a few minutes; empty & rinse out well. For a toilet, dissolve a cup-full in a jug of warm water; pour into the bowl; pump a few strokes every 5 minutes to gradually flush it through; when the bowl is empty, flush well with fresh or sea water (with some oil for lubrication). For an engine, dissolve 2 cupfuls in a bucket of warm water; run the engine warm; close the sea water intake valve; undo the cap on the sea water strainer; pour it in while running the engine at tick-over. Leave for 5 minutes then run the engine with sea water for 15 min to flush it all through.

Acetic acid (vinegar) is similar but more expensive.

Note that any acid will dissolve build-ups of carbonate deposit: it can happen that the deposits are actually stopping small leaks, which then show after using the acid: that's happened to me. But better to find this out under controlled conditions than at sea.

Concentrated and dilute refer to how much acid is dissolved in the water and is nothing to do with strong & weak: for toilet de-furring you should use a fairly concentrated weak acid. Note that when diluting a liquid acid (eg hydrochloric), always acid the concentrated acid slowly to a container of water, NEVER add water to acid. This is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL for sulphuric acid, which gives off so much heat while diluting that it may boil.

Always wear safety goggles especially when using a strong acid. The problem is they are now easily obtainable and people get complacent.

 

[vyv_cox]

Bit late with this thread, but hope this helps.

Do not use hydrochloric (muriatic) acid: it is a strong acid & will attack most metals and rubbers.

Rubbish. Hydrochloric acid is sold throughout Europe in supermarkets specifically for tipping down drains and toilets for the removal of carbonate deposits. At the strength available, which is not very concentrated, it has absolutely no effect on any metals or plastics or elastomers that are used in marine toilets. I have studied this topic at some length and carried out my own research to verify it. I have been using HCl at these concentrations in my marine toilets for well over ten years with no harmful effects.

When trying to find a way of determining differences between brass, bronze and DZR I exposed samples of them to a wide range of household chemicals, including more concentrated HCl than that, for up to 30 minutes. Not one of those alloys was even stained by the acid. I have done the same for 304 and 316 stainless steels with the same result. Elastomers used in marine toilets are mostly neoprene and nitrile. Neither of these is significantly attacked by dilute HCl, particularly for the short time of exposure in a toilet. You can check this at http://www.practical-sailor.com/issues/37_31/features/Joker-Valves-for-Marine-Heads_11065-1.html where these elastomers were immersed for a month with no effect.

Until recently many European supermarket bottles were labelled up as 20 - 30% but this seems to refer to the dilution of the original concentrated acid that is around 40% HCl in water. More recently bottles I have bought are labelled as being about 6% HCl.

 

[alanwilson]

The main thrust of my post was the safety aspect: why use dangerous chemicals when relatively safe (and just as effective) ones are freely available? When, as I have, you see the effect of splashes of hydrochloric and especially sulphuric acid (even dilute) on the face, you will understand where I'm coming from. Both hydrochloric and sulphuric acids are indeed widely available: guns are widely available in America, but that doesn't make them safe.

Part of my work as a materials chemist was teaching the effects of different acids on metals including cast iron (as in my engine): clearly my results were different from Vyv's. But obviously as a long-standing guru you should take his word for it and pour hydrochloric and/or sulphuric acids into your toilet and engine.

 

[rogerthebodger]

Hydrochloric acid is sold in supermarkets where I live for use in swimming pools to adjust the PH value.

I have used it in my heads and the only problems I have had is that with the pipes having a lot of build up putting HCA down the pipes caused sections of the fur to break off and block the seacock.

I have also had the build up of gas blow my henderson pump apart as I forgot to open the seacock and the build up of pressure between the pump NRV and the closed seacock was too much for the pump.

I also dont know how effective HCA would be in the section of pipe that has standing sea water in it as the sea water would dilute the HCA alot.

 

[sailorman]

Rubbish. Hydrochloric acid is sold throughout Europe in supermarkets specifically for tipping down drains and toilets for the removal of carbonate deposits. At the strength available, which is not very concentrated, it has absolutely no effect on any metals or plastics or elastomers that are used in marine toilets. I have studied this topic at some length and carried out my own research to verify it. I have been using HCl at these concentrations in my marine toilets for well over ten years with no harmful effects.

When trying to find a way of determining differences between brass, bronze and DZR I exposed samples of them to a wide range of household chemicals, including more concentrated HCl than that, for up to 30 minutes. Not one of those alloys was even stained by the acid. I have done the same for 304 and 316 stainless steels with the same result. Elastomers used in marine toilets are mostly neoprene and nitrile. Neither of these is significantly attacked by dilute HCl, particularly for the short time of exposure in a toilet. You can check this at http://www.practical-sailor.com/issues/37_31/features/Joker-Valves-for-Marine-Heads_11065-1.html where these elastomers were immersed for a month with no effect.

Until recently many European supermarket bottles were labelled up as 20 - 30% but this seems to refer to the dilution of the original concentrated acid that is around 40% HCl in water. More recently bottles I have bought are labelled as being about 6% HCl.

I will be using some this w/e to de-crud the pipes & pump & de-scale the kettle

 

[nigelmercier]

Do not use hydrochloric (muriatic) acid: it is a strong acid & will attack most metals and rubbers...

Why open up a old thread with complete nonsense?

 

[RichardS]

Why open up a old thread with complete nonsense?

And why start talking about sulphuric acid when I don't think anyone on these forums has suggested using that for anything.

I used to keep plentiful supplies of concentrated (fuming) hydrochloric, sulphuric and nitric acid in my maintenance store but all I have now is hydrochloric as that is useful on the boat.

Nitric acid was the most fun though. That stuff could dissolve anything and give off great coloured fumes!

Richard

 

[nigelmercier]

Nitric acid was the most fun though. That stuff could dissolve anything and give off great coloured fumes!

Which were often inhaled with not an Elf to be seen.

 

[Neeves]

Sorry to introduce another voice of dissent - but we clean our kettle by simply boiling lemon skins in the kettle and leaving overnight. I imagine you could use orange or grapefruit skins.

Environmentally friendly as well.

Cleaning vinegar, used for windows, is cheaper (if might also be called industrial vinegar) than a white wine vinegar and cleans toilets.

Jonathan

 

[vyv_cox]

Part of my work as a materials chemist was teaching the effects of different acids on metals including cast iron (as in my engine): clearly my results were different from Vyv's. But obviously as a long-standing guru you should take his word for it and pour hydrochloric and/or sulphuric acids into your toilet and engine.

As I and several others have pointed out, dilute hydrochloric acid is widely available for exactly the purpose that the thread discusses. Whereas I am not aware of any source of concentrated sulphuric acid to the average user. I have certainly never seen it on sale other than weak battery acid and most definitely would not pour it down a toilet if I did. Strongly oxidising acids like sulphuric and nitric are a very different matter from dilute hydrochloric.

You don't have to take my word as a 'guru' without question. Do the tests for yourself and find out if I am correct. Lots of people here have put hydrochloric, sulphamic and phosphoric acids in their engines, with wholly beneficial results.

 

[l'escargot]

...and grease it with silicone grease (not vaseline) and replace it....

Jabsco actually recommend Vaseline:

From here: http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/document.do?docId=772

 

[vyv_cox]

Jabsco actually recommend Vaseline:

From here: http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/document.do?docId=772

I find that Vaseline doesn't last as long as silicone grease, being a little more water soluble.

 

[RichardS]

Jabsco actually recommend Vaseline:

From here: http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/document.do?docId=772

It's interesting that when you buy a new Jabsco toilet, and I bought 2 last year, the piston seals and bore are covered with silicon grease and not vaseline!

I assume that they recommend vaseline rather than silicone grease as not many people have a 500g pot of the stuff like I do ...... whereas everyone has vaseline.

Richard

 

[Chris_Robb]

Most of the time we flush our heads with tank water as we have a large tank and mostly it is only pee which is flushed. We always ensure that the waste is completely pumped out of the pipe ( about 15 pumps for us)never the less we seem to suffer from white deposits in the ( Jabsco twist and lock) this means that I frequently have to clean the jocker(?) valve so that the twist and lock bit works rather than the water in the pipe flowing back into the bowl.I understood that white vinegar flushed progressively up the outlet pipe will eliminate the scaly deposit ? I cant find white vinegar in Cagliari is there another liquid I can use ( I guess it is the acetic acid which does the de scaling?)Advice appreciated

Not pumping enough - we have a relatively short pipes and I recon that needs 30 pumps. My crew sometimes munities over that..... but I never have a trace of calcite.

 

[Chris_Robb]

And why start talking about sulphuric acid when I don't think anyone on these forums has suggested using that for anything.

I used to keep plentiful supplies of concentrated (fuming) hydrochloric, sulphuric and nitric acid in my maintenance store but all I have now is hydrochloric as that is useful on the boat.

Nitric acid was the most fun though. That stuff could dissolve anything and give off great coloured fumes!

Richard

Wonderful stuff to mix with Toluene:disgust:

 

[Metabarca]

A bit behind the times here, but to return to the point that it is not possible to find white vinegar in Italy: not true! White wine vinegar (aceto di vino) and apple vinegar (aceto di mele) will be available from any supermarket, and larger ones may also sell white vinegar made from vegetables in 2 or 3 litre bottles.
Likewise in Slovenia (we buy 3 litre bottles of vinegar for cleaning here, available from Tuš supermarkets).