White or red diesel

ianc1200

ianc1200

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I've just had the boatyard empty my tanks, change the fuel filters, and put some new fuel in. They haven't put much in, but they've used white. I went to my usual place to get red diesel and their pump had broken down. I've got to run the boat about 11 hours over the weekend, there is one place I might get red, but the easier but dearer way would be to go by car and fill my jerrycans (if they'll let me) up with white.

I remember there was various discussions re the merit of white or red diesel, but is there any issue for limited use apart from cost?

regards

IanC
 
I run mine on White, and have done since it was new.

Where are you I've got few thousand ltr and plenty of containers if your stuck, it's in my yard 20 mins sw of gatwick
 
ianc1200 said:
I remember there was various discussions re the merit of white or red diesel, but is there any issue for limited use apart from cost?


IanC
Click to expand...

Problem seems to be that road diesel will contain FAME (Fatty Acid Methyl Esters) which a) absorb water, increasing your chances of bug, and b) attack various seals, etc. in your fuel system.

Cruising Association advice is to avoid diesel with FAME. If you can't I guess the answer is to use the minimum, then run it through the system completely before refilling with FAME free red.
 
Twister_Ken said:
Problem seems to be that road diesel will contain FAME (Fatty Acid Methyl Esters) which a) absorb water, increasing your chances of bug, and b) attack various seals, etc. in your fuel system.

Cruising Association advice is to avoid diesel with FAME. If you can't I guess the answer is to use the minimum, then run it through the system completely before refilling with FAME free red.
Click to expand...

Yet in the rest of Europe white diesel is what you get, has any one managed to find out if there is any greater or lesser incidence of the bug in countries where only white can be bought?
 
Thanks for the answers, and apologies for raising this again. I should have done a search first, but now have seen the opinions on the other threads.

Thanks again

IanC
 
Stick to red. Comments above re FAME are all true. Lubricity is lower too (seen the price of injector pumps?).

Clyde-based marinas are all saying they sell FAME-free red diesel only.

I'm staying with it.
 
The problem with red is that it's often of a far lesser quality than the (in most case pre treated) white diesel.
 
TAIC said:
The problem with red is that it's often of a far lesser quality than the (in most case pre treated) white diesel.
Click to expand...

If the various information sources are correct this is no longer the case. Red diesel now is exactly the same stuff, plus dye. Some marinas have said they will be providing red without FAME but seeing as we (and they) can't tell the difference I wouldn't count on this.

My boat has had no red in it for the past 15 years, only European white. my Yanmar engine has never run on red. No problems so far.
 
I've run on white diesel for the past 3 years with no problems so far. The reduced lubricity should not be a problem with new engines, cars seem to manage quite happily.

The main reason I changed was that red was definitely bad for diesel heaters. Webasto admit you have to service their heaters far more frequently if you use red and someone won a court case against Eberspacher claiming their heaters were unfit for purpose with marine diesel. It was also impossible to get red in the remoter parts of Scotland last year.

The potential increased problem with diesel bug is worrying but I am just hoping the additives will deal with that. At least I don't have to worry about going to Belgium which appears to be just about off limits to users of red diesel at the moment.
 
PeterR said:
I've run on white diesel for the past 3 years with no problems so far. The reduced lubricity should not be a problem with new engines, cars seem to manage quite happily.
Click to expand...

But I suspect the problem is that most of us aren't using new engines - mine is over 20 years old, and I expect it will keep going for another 20 quite happily. In fact, there's no reason it couldn't go on indefinitely - every wearing part is replaceable or serviceable. There is a vast difference between the modern common rail engine in my car and the Volvo lump under the companionway in Capricious. The former gives incredible fuel economy, but relies utterly on a computer to manage the engine; the latter will run all day under decidedly adverse conditions! The former I most certainly do NOT intend to try and service myself; the latter has been in bits and put back together and works quite happily.

Point is that there is no reason we should expect fuel that works well for the former to be as good for the latter. The engine in my car was designed for modern white diesel - and even that has a prominent notice on the filler saying "No BioDiesel". The Volvo was designed when diesel was the cheapest fuel available, and was usually of pretty variable quality - but definitely didn't include any additives or FAME. I'd imagine that the Volvo will run on pretty much any liquid that will burn (within reason!), but my car's engine doesn't like anything but fuel from the pump - I know; a rather expensive mistake I made was to fill it with petrol :( It did about 100 yards before stopping! No doubt the Volvo would complain - but it would carry on running, and if I tipped some 2-stroke oil in the tank, I am sure it would run fine.
 
I recently found out that both Derv EN590 and Gas Oil BS 2869 may contain up to 7% bio diesel (From 2011) and are basically the same fuel. A presentation by a fuel specialist showed how the water does not settle out and encourages the growth of bugs and creates a very corrosive mixture (damage to tanks). The shelf life is also dramitically reduced. I also understand the percentage of bio will increase to 15%. Good housekeeping, regular turn over and testing were the recommendations given - does not lend itself to our normal usage.
 
RMC said:
..... A presentation by a fuel specialist showed how the water does not settle out and encourages the growth of bugs and creates a very corrosive mixture (damage to tanks).....
Click to expand...

Does this mean that entrained water in fuel is actually a healthy breading ground compared to settled water / diesel interface? Curious to understand.
 
Twister_Ken said:
Problem seems to be that road diesel will contain FAME (Fatty Acid Methyl Esters) which a) absorb water, increasing your chances of bug, and b) attack various seals, etc. in your fuel system.
Click to expand...

Rubbish, lots!

So let me understand why my engine hasn't broken down after 6 years and 750 hours on white diesel? Since my boat was launched in Europe and there the only diesel available is white, which is the same diesel used in cars. And what about my car, and every car and lorry with diesel engines around running on "white diesel"?

The color is only a dye used to identify tax free fuel by customs and excise to catch those illegally filling up their cars with it.
THE FUEL IS EXACTLY THE SAME, ANYONE THINKING DIFFERENTLY IS ONLY DELUDED.
 
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haydude said:
Rubbish, lots!

So let me understand why my engine hasn't broken down after 6 years and 750 hours on white diesel? Since my boat was launched in Europe and there the only diesel available is white, which is the same diesel used in cars. And what about my car, and every car and lorry with diesel engines around running on "white diesel"?
Click to expand...

I think you will find that FAME levels of up to 7% have been allowed only since Jan 1st 2011, so it is unlikely that you have bought very much yet. Addition is optional and not all refiners will include it.

This is what Wikepedia says:
Fuel equipment manufacturers (FIE) have raised several concerns regarding FAME fuels: free methanol, dissolved and free water, free glycerin, mono and diglycerides, free fatty acids, total solid impurity levels, alkaline metal compounds in solution and oxidation and thermal stability. They have also identified FAME as being the cause of the following problems: corrosion of fuel injection components, low pressure fuel system blockage, increased dilution and polymerization of engine sump oil, pump seizures due to high fuel viscosity at low temperature, increased injection pressure, elastomeric seal failures and fuel injector spray blockage.

The Cruising Association have invested considerable research into the topic, issuing various warnings and advice to members.
 
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