wizard
Well-Known Member
Following on from the endless red diesel discussions - does anyone know of any suppliers for boats that sell white fame free marine diesel?
White Marine Diesel
- Thread starter wizard
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dom
Well-Known Member
Doubt it; the EU Renewable Fuel Transport Obligation (RTFO in euro-bureau lingo) as I understand it specifies a mandatory target for renewable fuels. This used to be around 6%, increased to 7.25% this April, will go up again to 8.5% in Jan 2019 and on upwards from there. That said, some countries have got around this once one can prove said diesel is not intended for road use, but obviously no duty concessions. Perhaps they cld do a special FAME-free white for vegans, but you'd have to give up the steak first 
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dunedin
Well-Known Member
Certainly was available in places in the Baltic last year, clearly not been any incentive to have in U.K. until now.
Champagne Murphy
Well-Known Member
See post #93 http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?509650-Red-Diesel-UK-Government-loses/page10
Bru (of this parish) points out that the legal obligation to add a percentage of bio-diesel only applies to road fuel. It isn’t a law that applies to marine supplies. Until there is demand I doubt very much we’ll see FAME free white at the dockside. Just not worth it for the suppliers.
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macd
Well-Known Member
My understanding is that the % mandated is (or was?) aggregated over the whole market for any particular supplier. So 0% is permitted, balanced by some at a higher percentage than stipulated. But perhaps I'm wrong?
wizard
Well-Known Member
What I don’t understand is that our current red diesel is fame free with added dye. Why not just remove the dye.
All is as before and eventually we all turn white.
All is as before and eventually we all turn white.
dom
Well-Known Member
Dunno, you may be right in that according to the legislation, "Under the RTFO, fuel suppliers have an obligation to provide a volume of sustainable renewable fuel which is calculated as a proportion of the overall volume of fuel they supply for road transport and NRMM purposes." That said seagoing vessels are explicitly excluded from the NRMM definition (non road mobile machinery), so if one could prove................. might be more hassle than its worth though.
Champagne Murphy
Well-Known Member
‘Cos most of it goes to fishing vessels which are entitled to use it under EU law. Having a separate outfit (production, delivery, tankage, pumps) for FAME free white is going to be cited by the industry as a pain in the arse.
wizard
Well-Known Member
Well the goverment or somebody is going to have to come up with something or else very few boats will be able to go anywhere in the EU!
Champagne Murphy
Well-Known Member
I doubt they give a stuff at the moment, that seem to have a full plate as it is!
Bru
Well-Known Member
You're not wrong
As I pointed out in the other thread, unless it is explicitly sold as FAME free, there's no guarantee that your "red" diesel hasn't got an unknown proportion of FAME in it and due to the aggregation mentioned above the chances are it probably has
Champagne Murphy
Well-Known Member
Posted on another thread;
I sent an email yesterday to the Harbour Master at Ramsgate. Here is his reply, self explanatory really.
Good morning Karl
Thank you for your enquiry.
We presently serve three fuels for leisure vessels at Ramsgate from our own fuel barge; these are FAME free red marine gas oil, white diesel (not FAME free) and unleaded petrol.
We're hoping that in line with the recent ruling, the industry will soon be in a position to be able to provide FAME free white diesel.
Kind regards
Robert Brown.
Harbour Master & Marine Operations Manager
I sent an email yesterday to the Harbour Master at Ramsgate. Here is his reply, self explanatory really.
Good morning Karl
Thank you for your enquiry.
We presently serve three fuels for leisure vessels at Ramsgate from our own fuel barge; these are FAME free red marine gas oil, white diesel (not FAME free) and unleaded petrol.
We're hoping that in line with the recent ruling, the industry will soon be in a position to be able to provide FAME free white diesel.
Kind regards
Robert Brown.
Harbour Master & Marine Operations Manager
wizard
Well-Known Member
Just seen this in the red diesel thread from Champagne Murphy:
I sent an email yesterday to the Harbour Master at Ramsgate. Here is his reply, self explanatory really.
Good morning Karl
Thank you for your enquiry.
We presently serve three fuels for leisure vessels at Ramsgate from our own fuel barge; these are FAME free red marine gas oil, white diesel (not FAME free) and unleaded petrol.
We're hoping that in line with the recent ruling, the industry will soon be in a position to be able to provide FAME free white diesel.
Kind regards
Robert Brown.
Harbour Master & Marine Operations Manager
So maybe there is hope ...
I sent an email yesterday to the Harbour Master at Ramsgate. Here is his reply, self explanatory really.
Good morning Karl
Thank you for your enquiry.
We presently serve three fuels for leisure vessels at Ramsgate from our own fuel barge; these are FAME free red marine gas oil, white diesel (not FAME free) and unleaded petrol.
We're hoping that in line with the recent ruling, the industry will soon be in a position to be able to provide FAME free white diesel.
Kind regards
Robert Brown.
Harbour Master & Marine Operations Manager
So maybe there is hope ...
Graham376
Well-Known Member
Why? Tens of thousands of leisure boats run on white road diesel (as we have done for 10+ years) all across Europe without any problems whatsoever. Fuel worries remind me of the y2k unfounded panic.
wizard
Well-Known Member
I have had no problem getting white diesel abroad either. The problem is getting the white diesel to a pump near the boat. I dont fancy lugging 155l of diesel to my boat in cans on a regular basis.
AntarcticPilot
Well-Known Member
As someone who had to work on the y2k problem, can I say that it WASN'T unfounded? Hard work by vast numbers of people avoided the problem - but it often involved the complete replacement of systems that weren't and couldn't be made y2k. For example, we had a perfectly adequate financial system that had been tailored over the years to fit our requirements very well. Unfortunately, it handled dates in a way that was a) unfixable and b) would have resulted in transactions posted after 31/12/1999 being 100 year overdue! We ended up spending man-years of effort and considerable extra costs in training and purchasing to avert it. Because running Antarctic bases is a 24/7/365 operation, we also had people on duty on 31/12/1999 to 01/01/2000 just to ensure that nothing failed - it didn't, but that was because people had made sure it wouldn't. not because there wasn't a problem.
Yes, there was press hysteria about totally impossible effects (there was never a serious question that car electronics would stop working, for example), but don't get the impression it wasn't a problem. And in fact, there was a case a month or so ago where a rarely active system erroneously gave warning of an earthquake BECAUSE of a Y2K bug!
jdc
Well-Known Member
I have always thought that the UK's stance on red is dishonest. The real problem is that our road fuel is priced way above that of our neighbours, so asking yachts to pay that was going to be a problem since they can reasonably go elsewhere to fill up. The EU actually asked only that 330 euros tax be applied per 1000 litres of fuel, whereas the UK chages at least double this for road fuel, hence the 60/40 split thing. But it's an MP's expenses 'solution', that is to say the practice is ok - make some payment system about right, be it our diesel or the MP's salaries - but the principle is dishonest and dodging the real issue. No surprise it's fallen on its face. Shame on the RYA, PBO and Motorboat Monthly for their part in a conspiracy to commit perjury.
Other countries have no issues with white fuel for yachts, red for fishing boats, and of course everyone knows there are no canals in France, Holland or Belgium. It's simply lying to claim that our situation is unique: Iceland, in the remotest hamlet on the N coast for God's sake, manages to have both pumps at the quay side. It's preposterous to say that it couldn't be done in the Solent, or even in Mallaig(1). On the subject of Iceland's fuel, 100% duty paid white diesel in Iceland - an otherwise eye-wateringly expensive place - is less than red diesel in the UK even when one claims the 60/40 split. This is the real 'rip-off UK' and the real problem. Let's direct our ire where it's merited.
(1) Just to check this, since I have red diesel in tanks at my farm I asked the supplier if I could also have a white tank. 'No problem sir, minimum order 250 litres (less my boat's tanks), no extra delivery charge'. `Too hard to organise' my ar%e.
Other countries have no issues with white fuel for yachts, red for fishing boats, and of course everyone knows there are no canals in France, Holland or Belgium. It's simply lying to claim that our situation is unique: Iceland, in the remotest hamlet on the N coast for God's sake, manages to have both pumps at the quay side. It's preposterous to say that it couldn't be done in the Solent, or even in Mallaig(1). On the subject of Iceland's fuel, 100% duty paid white diesel in Iceland - an otherwise eye-wateringly expensive place - is less than red diesel in the UK even when one claims the 60/40 split. This is the real 'rip-off UK' and the real problem. Let's direct our ire where it's merited.
(1) Just to check this, since I have red diesel in tanks at my farm I asked the supplier if I could also have a white tank. 'No problem sir, minimum order 250 litres (less my boat's tanks), no extra delivery charge'. `Too hard to organise' my ar%e.
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maby
Well-Known Member
I think it is safe to say that when (if?) the government admits defeat and bans marked fuel for leisure craft, at least one marina in every major sailing area will either convert a pump to white or install a new one. It is not a particularly expensive thing to do and well worth it if it helps them to retain a couple of dozen berth holders.
The problem until now has been a perception amongst marina operators that the demand for unmarked diesel is very low. I spoke to the management of one of the MDL marinas on the subject a few years ago and they told me that there was already a spare tank installed together with most of the piping to the fuel pontoon. They could have been up and running selling unmarked fuel within a few weeks and at a very low cost - they were not bothering to do so until the government actually banned marked fuel because they didn't think they could sell enough to justify the work.
This may be very different for leisure sailors in distant places who only have the commercial fuel outlets available. That will be a problem for them and we should be sympathetic, but the impact on the UK leisure boating community will be small - let's face it - 90% of that population is based in and around the Solent and could be served by a single marina fuel berth offering white.
macd
Well-Known Member
A compelling argument, but nowhere near true.
awol
Well-Known Member
I was under the impression, though I could be very wrong, that modern high power, common rail, emission controlled engines were not happy on red and much preferred white to the extent that marinas were already stocking white (or calling in tankers for big mobos).
