Which year would you say this boat is?

[volvopaul]

So he is about to walk away from a perfectly good boat, that he liked, where the condition has not changed, the specifications have not changed, the engine hours have not changed and there is no more wear and tear.
The only difference is a label attached to it that is one digit lower than he thought it would be.
I don't condone the sellers/dealers actions, but if he was happy with the boat and it's price before, what's changed? (and I don't mean the 'being misled' bit here)
Sure, as I said previously if you can get it for a cheaper price great, but the boat is no different to when he first looked at it, and I can't see why the value should have suddenly dropped? After all, it seems this type of labelling is common practice, and it seems to be done purely to maximise 'perceived' value from people that worry about it.

Given that the boat is still identical to when he first saw it, how much is a single year digit on the hull worth? - And why does that non physical attribute devalue all of the (unchanged) physical attributes that the boat is made up from?

I know that newer things attract a higher price than older things (well, unless we are talking antiques or collectibles), but why?
Why is so much value placed on the age rather than the condition?
Lets keep things in perspective - we are talking a few months - not a decade.

I buy things for what they can do for me, and the age does nothing.

Do you work for Sunsqueaker???.

This boat had 39 faults some of which when my friend told me about I just laughed and told him to walk away, a few of which were major that needed changing and due to being fitted at a stage of build there was no way these faults could be rectified at all, they were also adamant that they were not going to do these jobs as they said it was age related, one one which, and I cant think of anyone taking on such a boat was the fact that water came into the boat when you came off the plane through the bonding between the hull and the top, so agreat job done at build.

Would you pay 550k for about when the same company has one the same year, engines etc for 175k less??? no I dont think you would, and neither did he.

Since he has had a call and the same boat still for sale at....... yes a lot less!!

 

[MapisM]

Well according to gjgm's link here http://www.boattitleanswers.com/?p=5#more-5 K1 is the date of certification

That's not what I thought.
In my understanding, K1 is the month/year when the keel was laid (or hull moulded), and the certification date follows.
But I remembered to have read some more detailed explanations somewhere, so I googled around a bit and found this webpage, according to which the rule is not as strict as I thought.
In fact, "K1" can actually be from any time when you started building the boat until when you put it on the truck for delivery.

Besides, I found an interesting confirmation that the model year actually MUST be linked to build date: if a boat is built between Aug 1, 2010 and Jul 31, 2011 then is a 2011 MY.
In other words, the interpretation of the previously mentioned CFR regulation is considered mandatory - though I agree with jfm that the text alone is not clear in this respect. What I didn't remember is that USCG started "enforcing" the MY since 2009.
So, apparently it was ok to have a boat HIN-ed say as A809, but not anymore from 2009 onward. The first acceptable letter for a boat built in 2009, to be marked as 2010 MY, is H910. "A" to "G", plus "910", would be a self-contradictory HIN.

Oh, and before anyone points that out: I know that the site I linked above has no "legal" value at all, but I found it to be very accurate in other occasions, and I'd be very surprised if they were telling porkies.

 

[MapisM]

What you have there, is a 2001 boat.

Feel free to see it like that if you wish, but that's not the commonly accepted practice - and for good reasons.
In other words, if you would be the owner of a A202 boat, trying to sell her at any significantly higher price than another perfectly identical L102 boat, I'd have two words for you: good luck.

 

[Whitelighter]

Funny thing is...

that I bet quite a few people on here own expensive cars, where the difference bewteen years can be as much as 10% of the sale price. Thing is, we all take the registration date of the vehicle as its year - 98R, 99V 2002 53 etc etc.

Its perfectly normal to do this, but just like a HIN the Chassis number (visible on most new cars) will give you not only the build date, but spec, options, country of origin etc etc etc - its just a case of knowing what to look for.

You would be amzed, but I reckon at least half of the cars running around on the roads (especially high value stuff like RangeRovers, BMWs, Porsche etc etc) are a year different to the registration year. I have known some cars be up to 2 years different (usually built in November/December 02, delivered in January 04) but still would be commonly refered to, valued as and excepted by all as a 2004 car, because that is when the warranty started, and when mileage and use started to affect its condition. So why are we so different with boats? Why does a hull built in 07 but not actaully comissioned until 09 (so no use, where and tear etc) be any less valuable than a 09 boat comisiioned in that year (assuming the spec and style are the same of course).

FWIW I have always taken the final 2 digits as the vessels year, though I do look at the previous two but more for consistancy than anything else.

Maybe we should all check the Chassis Number next time we buy a car of course....

 

[jfm]

Besides, I found an interesting confirmation that the model year actually MUST be linked to build date: if a boat is built between Aug 1, 2010 and Jul 31, 2011 then is a 2011 MY.
In other words, the interpretation of the previously mentioned CFR regulation is considered mandatory - though I agree with jfm that the text alone is not clear in this respect. What I didn't remember is that USCG started "enforcing" the MY since 2009.
So, apparently it was ok to have a boat HIN-ed say as A809, but not anymore from 2009 onward. The first acceptable letter for a boat built in 2009, to be marked as 2010 MY, is H910. "A" to "G", plus "910", would be a self-contradictory HIN.

Oh, and before anyone points that out: I know that the site I linked above has no "legal" value at all, but I found it to be very accurate in other occasions, and I'd be very surprised if they were telling porkies.

MapisM, I think you are giving too much credence to that article. It's well written, but it has a number of clues to a lack of 100% precision, imho. In relation to this point, the author writes:

"33 CFR 181.3 Model year means the period beginning August 1 of any year and ending on July 31 of the following year. Each Model year is designated by the year in which it ends.

This means that if a boat is built between Aug 1, 2010 and July 31, 2011 then the boat is a 2011 model year. "

The first sentence is a quote from the (US) law. The second sentence is the author's own. Tell me if I've missed something, but as I see it, the second sentence is not at all justified by the first. The author has been imprecise in writing the second sentence, which is untrue and not stipulated by law. The words "This means" would make you think he has a pretty poor command of English, becuase the first sentence most certainly does not mean what he says it means. Nor would you expect it to be in the law, btw, bearing in mind the build time for a large boat.

I see nothing wrong for a builder (who exercises his choice to use the letter A,B,C etc according to hull mould date, not factory-finished date) making soon a E011 boat, just as mine is E809, provided the boat spec meets what is advertised and represented by that builder as the "2011 model year" spec. The boat often wouldn't be finished till August 2010 anyway

 

[jfm]

Feel free to see it like that if you wish, but that's not the commonly accepted practice - and for good reasons.
In other words, if you would be the owner of a A202 boat, trying to sell her at any significantly higher price than another perfectly identical L102 boat, I'd have two words for you: good luck.

100% agreed. And Deleted User's original question was not about the precise facts (which are clear), but rather how the market operates and what are accepted practices and conventions, where I think the correct answer is that both the A202 and L102 boats would be markleted as "2002"

FWIW when I sold a J304 I advertised it as "2004". It had 2004 MY spec, which was significantly different from 2003 (bigger windows, frexample). I give p'copies of all ship's papers to buyer before he committed, so he could see all details precisely, and he had no quibble. If he had, I'd have told him to FRO. This *is* how the market operates, I think. Whether it *should* is neither here nor there.

 

[ari]

Originally Posted by ari
What you have there, is a 2001 boat.

Feel free to see it like that if you wish, but that's not the commonly accepted practice - and for good reasons.
In other words, if you would be the owner of a A202 boat, trying to sell her at any significantly higher price than another perfectly identical L102 boat, I'd have two words for you: good luck.

It's not a matter of how it's "seen", it's a matter of what it is.

The question was very simply "What year would you say this boat is"?

And the answer, equally simply, is "it's a 2001 boat". It says so on the Builders Certificate. Simple as that.

I'm not arguing about when it was sold, value, price, perceived, real, or otherwise. I'm answering the question. The boat is a 2001 boat. That is unarguably the case.

 

[mjf]

that I bet quite a few people on here own expensive cars, where the difference bewteen years can be as much as 10% of the sale price. Thing is, we all take the registration date of the vehicle as its year - 98R, 99V 2002 53 etc etc.

Its perfectly normal to do this, but just like a HIN the Chassis number (visible on most new cars) will give you not only the build date, but spec, options, country of origin etc etc etc - its just a case of knowing what to look for.

You would be amzed, but I reckon at least half of the cars running around on the roads (especially high value stuff like RangeRovers, BMWs, Porsche etc etc) are a year different to the registration year. I have known some cars be up to 2 years different (usually built in November/December 02, delivered in January 04) but still would be commonly refered to, valued as and excepted by all as a 2004 car, because that is when the warranty started, and when mileage and use started to affect its condition. So why are we so different with boats? Why does a hull built in 07 but not actaully comissioned until 09 (so no use, where and tear etc) be any less valuable than a 09 boat comisiioned in that year (assuming the spec and style are the same of course).

FWIW I have always taken the final 2 digits as the vessels year, though I do look at the previous two but more for consistancy than anything else.

Maybe we should all check the Chassis Number next time we buy a car of course....

I was about to post a few remarks about cars as its relivant I think.

years ago when the reg changed on 1st Aug and there was not the market for private plates - I had new cars that hit the road on 1st Jan as I was not bothered about the reg but certainly the year of reg made a huge difference to trade in prices.

MY is important but so is the date of commissioning to the first proper owner IMHO

 

[jfm]

[It's not a matter of how it's "seen", it's a matter of what it is.

The question was very simply "What year would you say this boat is"?

And the answer, equally simply, is "it's a 2001 boat". It says so on the Builders Certificate. Simple as that.

I'm not arguing about when it was sold, value, price, perceived, real, or otherwise. I'm answering the question. The boat is a 2001 boat. That is unarguably the case.

Ari, the reason you're disagreeing is that you're answering a different question. Yes, you're 100% right that it "is" a 2001 boat. But if you read Deleted User's post fully you can see that he is not asking what it is. He's asking what you'd say it is, and he clarifies that in his post by saying "My only concern is that when I come to sell the boat, I can describe it as a 2002?". He's asking a marketing question: ie, how would you fairly describe it in the sales process?

The answer to his question is "2002". That's how the market operates, whether or not you or I think it should. My anecdote of selling a J304 as a "2004" is but one of many examples of the market operating that way (quite sensibly)

 

[MapisM]

MapisM, I think you are giving too much credence to that article.

Yeah, possibly.
Otoh, you are (and you know that!) way more accurate in the interpretation of legal wording than the average reader - and surely way more that the writer of that article, anyway.
But as I said, in other occasions I found articles about boatbuilding on that website which clearly showed that there was someone who knew what he was saying, behind the keyboard.
In this case, I agree that he's wrong when he says "This means...", as if the MY consequence would be directly implied by the CFR wording.
But maybe what he meant is something along the lines of "According to USCG (and/or commonly accepted practice, or any other reason?), 33 CFR 181.3 has to be interpreted as...".
In fact, I still think that what the writer, though not familiar with legal wording, indeed has some knowledge of the subject.

 

[MapisM]

the answer, equally simply, is "it's a 2001 boat".

Nope. I can't explain it any better than jfm did.
2001 might be the answer if you just read the question in the subject of the OP, but the answer to what Mike actually asked is, also very clearly and simply, 2002.