Which sub 37 ft yacht to cross the North Atlantic in?

[Laminar Flow]

Instead of looking at (if you'll forgive me) a slightly obscure ocean race, have look at the figures for the boats crossing the Atlantic in the ARC. How many boats lost their rudders last year or in the last few years compared to how many boats took part? Now look at how many cruising boats lose their rudders compared to how many cruising boats cross oceans generally. How many Volvo Ocean racing boats lose their rudders?

The real difference is we are talking about cruising boats. Not ocean racing boats that are notoriously designed down to a weight (and strength)

With respect you seem to be a little selective in your sources.

You are very welcome to look up what type of, ahem, "racing" boats lost their rudders on this particularly obscure (if longish) ocean race:
Kaufmann 44,
Santa Cruz 40,
Swan 30,
Beneteau First 40.5
Farr 395

(one year)

All due respect, but having done the "ARC" route, sans race, myself, I would struggle to call that passage a significant challenge for man or material. (Unless you count potential boredom as an endurance test) For what it's worth, you could probably make it across in any type of boat. A folding kayak, perhaps (oh, sorry, that's been done) a garbage can then? Doesn't some Brit try it every other year in a barrel?

So lets talk about cruising boats.
Cruising, per definition, is the perambulation in a boat and, occasionally, even under sail, to places dissimilar, in someway, to the ones we have left; Such an endeavor is to be of some duration and with an emphasis on living.

To experience such, and in some comfort, and, unless one is a solitary anthropophobe or has a hankering to be some modern day Diogenes in a fibreglass barrel, this requires a fair amount of clobber.

This effectively means we are talking about displacement vessels, especially as far as the smaller boats are concerned, say, sub 40'.

In this category we are looking at speed length ratios of (in metric) between 2.72 to 3.2 absolute max., with an average sailing speed of 1.63 (0.9 imperial).

To be clear, such speeds, given the same SA/displ. ratios, can be reached by any underwater configuration, including a long keel or, God forbid, a skeg. In fact, the first time I ever sailed at twelve knots in a yacht was in a 35 DWL longkeeled sloop.

So, unless you are racing or the boat is very large for the size of crew, to permit a low displacement ratio when loaded, the type of bits she has sticking out below the waterline are pretty much irrelevant and every one is free to pick the type he or she is most comfortable with. I'm pretty certain that a personal a sense of security and confidence one has in a boat is as important as the actual seaworthiness of the boat itself.

 

[john_morris_uk]

You are very welcome to look up what type of, ahem, "racing" boats lost their rudders on this particularly obscure (if longish) ocean race:
Kaufmann 44,
Santa Cruz 40,
Swan 30,
Beneteau First 40.5
Farr 395

(one year)

All due respect, but having done the "ARC" route, sans race, myself, I would struggle to call that passage a significant challenge for man or material. (Unless you count potential boredom as an endurance test) For what it's worth, you could probably make it across in any type of boat. A folding kayak, perhaps (oh, sorry, that's been done) a garbage can then? Doesn't some Brit try it every other year in a barrel?

So lets talk about cruising boats.
Cruising, per definition, is the perambulation in a boat and, occasionally, even under sail, to places dissimilar, in someway, to the ones we have left; Such an endeavor is to be of some duration and with an emphasis on living.

To experience such, and in some comfort, and, unless one is a solitary anthropophobe or has a hankering to be some modern day Diogenes in a fibreglass barrel, this requires a fair amount of clobber.

This effectively means we are talking about displacement vessels, especially as far as the smaller boats are concerned, say, sub 40'.

In this category we are looking at speed length ratios of (in metric) between 2.72 to 3.2 absolute max., with an average sailing speed of 1.63 (0.9 imperial).

To be clear, such speeds, given the same SA/displ. ratios, can be reached by any underwater configuration, including a long keel or, God forbid, a skeg. In fact, the first time I ever sailed at twelve knots in a yacht was in a 35 DWL longkeeled sloop.

So, unless you are racing or the boat is very large for the size of crew, to permit a low displacement ratio when loaded, the type of bits she has sticking out below the waterline are pretty much irrelevant and every one is free to pick the type he or she is most comfortable with. I'm pretty certain that a personal a sense of security and confidence one has in a boat is as important as the actual seaworthiness of the boat itself.

You’re completely missing the points I was making.

The number of boats that had rudder troubles in that slightly obscure race was being used to justify a general claim of 1% of yachts with spade rudders sailing oceans have rudder problems. It was a quote from an American source to justify the claim made earlier.

Hence my quoting an easily verified source of the ARC. I don’t care that it’s ‘easy.’ It’s a source of multiple thousands of Ocean miles sailed by lots of yachts.

You can guesstimate figures and cruising speeds all day long but two things remain true. Everyone is welcome to make their own choice in the compromises involved in yacht design. And Fin keeled yachts sail faster and point higher than long keeled yachts even when they’re slower laden down cruising yachts.

 

[Laminar Flow]

You’re completely missing the points I was making.

The number of boats that had rudder troubles in that slightly obscure race was being used to justify a general claim of 1% of yachts with spade rudders sailing oceans have rudder problems. It was a quote from an American source to justify the claim made earlier.

Hence my quoting an easily verified source of the ARC. I don’t care that it’s ‘easy.’ It’s a source of multiple thousands of Ocean miles sailed by lots of yachts.

You can guesstimate figures and cruising speeds all day long but two things remain true. Everyone is welcome to make their own choice in the compromises involved in yacht design. And Fin keeled yachts sail faster and point higher than long keeled yachts even when they’re slower laden down cruising yachts.

On a last note. I have now come across the the 1% claim on at least two different sources and another of 0.5% to 1%.
In automotive terms, and if the numbers were correct, even a portion of that would trigger a major recall.

The main concern with rudder failure on the high seas is that it ends, more often than not, with the abandonment of the vessel and its subsequent loss.

As to cruising speeds: the figures quoted are not "guesstimations" but are based on technical, factual and statistical data quoted by Marchaj, Donat, Guetelle, Gerr et all and reflect the characteristic resistance curves of displacement yachts. The rest of your statement is a gross generalization and as such incorrect.

 

[john_morris_uk]

On a last note. I have now come across the the 1% claim on at least two different sources and another of 0.5% to 1%.
In automotive terms, and if the numbers were correct, even a portion of that would trigger a major recall.

The main concern with rudder failure on the high seas is that it ends, more often than not, with the abandonment of the vessel and its subsequent loss.

As to cruising speeds: the figures quoted are not "guesstimations" but are based on technical, factual and statistical data quoted by Marchaj, Donat, Guetelle, Gerr et all and reflect the characteristic resistance curves of displacement yachts. The rest of your statement is a gross generalization and as such incorrect.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with your quoting of 'authoritative sources' and all the figures. I don't doubt the figures at all (although I do question your suggestion that the underwater shape doesn't make much difference and a brick would be just as fast.) Are you really suggesting that a long keeled boat is just as fast as a fin keeled boat of the same LOA and LWL. We must have a race across an ocean. Two boats of the same LOA and LWL and sail area etc.
If long keels were so wonderful (and not a result of the limitations of wood and manufacturing techniques you are tied into with the linear strength properties of wood.) then we would all still be sailing long keeled boats. I suggest you can design a fin keeled boat that is just as comfortable as a long keeled boat but sails better and faster, points higher and heaves to just as sweetly.

Just because something is a generalisation doesn't mean its wrong.

What are these other sources suggesting 1% rudder failure for spade rudders? The whole subject of sources is interesting and I'll give you an example of what I mean. For many years multiple sources claimed that the number of homosexuals in a population was 10%. When you started looking a little deeper into this, all the sources went back to one erroneous study by Kinsey. (In reality the % is closer to 3% or 4%.) The 10% still gets trotted out by some lazy journalists.

 

[Bajansailor]

Are you really suggesting that a long keeled boat is just as fast as a fin keeled boat of the same LOA and LWL.

John, I think a lot depends on the ability of the crew in such circumstances.

I used to sail a lot (in the 1990's, under her previous owner) on the S & S designed long keel Stormy Weather (built in the 1930's) - she could generally 'hold her own' then on elapsed time against similar sized S & S designed Swans et al in Antigua Sailing Week, yet she invariably had a much better rating.

https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ai...57/mmsi:235069277/imo:0/vessel:STORMY_WEATHER

Here is her former owner's page -
Marine, nautical, yachting and sailing Page

And her present owner's page -
Stormy Weather - Yacht - Lines

I crewed on her in the 1993 Fastnet, and we averaged 10 knots the whole way from the Fastnet to the Bishop on the return leg.
And a trans-atlantic from Tenerife to Antigua the following year, during which we had a few 200 mile days - I remember one surf of 14 knots when I was helming on my watch - and she has tiller steering, on a 54' yacht.

The Falmouth Quay Punt 'Curlew' was another example of a classic that could give serious opposition to more modern boats when sailed well - she took part in Antigua Sailing Week one year in the early 1980's (before the Antigua Classics Regatta started), and she pretty much demolished her opposition, who were not amused to find that they had been beaten by a boat built in the late 1800's.

 

[Bajansailor]

Re E39's post below re Sunstone - I seem to remember that Sunstone also caused consternation at the various regattas in the Caribbean that she attended, where she would usually mop up the opposition very effectively.

 

[E39mad]

@Bajansailor - it sounds a lot like Sunstone an old S&S wooden boat that used to clean up in CHS (as it was then) in that late 80's and early 90's in the Solent and offshore. She by modern standards had a long keel although not all the way to the rudder.

 

[Laminar Flow]

I'll try again:
Key words: cruising speed and displacement yachts.

A fully laden, for cruising purposes, as defined, small yacht is a displacement vessel. To plane, not surfing, requires, a displacement/length ratio of under 100 and a SA/Displmt ratio of 400 sqft/2400lbs. So, that is just not going to happen.

Discounting resistance due to sea state and a few other bits like heeled resistance versus upright resistance, the two main factors are frictional resistance due to wetted area and form resistance. Form resistance is directly linked to displacement.

Up to a speed length/ratio of 1 (imperial) or 1.65 (metric), frictional resistance is the predominant factor. To this point the curves for both friction and form resistance rise quite gently and fairly parallel, then, form resistance shoots up exponentially. Conversely, as speed increases, frictional resistance becomes less relevant. This is, by the way, why an average speed factor of 0.9 / 1.63 makes good sense.

.

The big drawback of longkeeled yachts is, apart from maneuvering in a tight marina and in reverse, their wetted area and hence increased frictional resistance. This is easily overcome by an appropriate increase in SA. Apart from that, a long keel can be as hydrodynamically sophisticated as anything else afloat. I have seen some.

I have absolutely no emotional attachment to long keels, even though Marchaj does make a very convincing, carefully reasoned and scientifically supported argument for their purported superior seaworthiness.

The real detriment to speed is weight and that has less to do with the shape of underwater appendages.

The fact that boats like Dorade and Stormy Weather can, equipped with up-to-date sails and skillfully sailed, hold their own against much more modern boats goes to show that, on the front of displacement speeds, we have not made much progress for the better part of a century.

Up to a speed/length ratio of 1 imperial, 1.65 metric, two similar boats, one heavy and one light, but both with the same SA/Displm ratio, the heavy one will be faster.

Re your last comment; I do sometimes wonder where people's minds go and I was going to look up something appropriate in the Hite report, but in the end, I have to say, I couldn't be bothered.

 

[TernVI]

I'll try again:
Key words: cruising speed and displacement yachts.

A fully laden, for cruising purposes, as defined, small yacht is a displacement vessel. To plane, not surfing, requires, a displacement/length ratio of under 100 and a SA/Displmt ratio of 400 sqft/2400lbs. So, that is just not going to happen.

Discounting resistance due to sea state and a few other bits like heeled resistance versus upright resistance, the two main factors are frictional resistance due to wetted area and form resistance. Form resistance is directly linked to displacement.

Up to a speed length/ratio of 1 (imperial) or 1.65 (metric), frictional resistance is the predominant factor. To this point the curves for both friction and form resistance rise quite gently and fairly parallel, then, form resistance shoots up exponentially. Conversely, as speed increases, frictional resistance becomes less relevant. This is, by the way, why an average speed factor of 0.9 / 1.63 makes good sense.

.View attachment 98680

The big drawback of longkeeled yachts is, apart from maneuvering in a tight marina and in reverse, their wetted area and hence increased frictional resistance. This is easily overcome by an appropriate increase in SA. Apart from that, a long keel can be as hydrodynamically sophisticated as anything else afloat. I have seen some.

I have absolutely no emotional attachment to long keels, even though Marchaj does make a very convincing, carefully reasoned and scientifically supported argument for their purported superior seaworthiness.

The real detriment to speed is weight and that has less to do with the shape of underwater appendages.

The fact that boats like Dorade and Stormy Weather can, equipped with up-to-date sails and skillfully sailed, hold their own against much more modern boats goes to show that, on the front of displacement speeds, we have not made much progress for the better part of a century.

Up to a speed/length ratio of 1 imperial, 1.65 metric, two similar boats, one heavy and one light, but both with the same SA/Displm ratio, the heavy one will be faster.

Re your last comment; I do sometimes wonder where people's minds go and I was going to look up something appropriate in the Hite report, but in the end, I have to say, I couldn't be bothered.

I think you are missing the big point that most 'long keel' yachts of a given nominal length tend to have shorter lwl.
The best way to overcome the extra drag of a long keel is not more sail area, as that needs more ballast or a deeper keel to extract the power. The best way is a slightly bigger boat, in LWL, which may mean quite a bit bigger in LOA.
Simple example, racing under IRC an Impala 28 has to give time to a Contessa 32. You want something like a Contessa 35 if there was such a thing. But that's going to be a lot more £££. Do the RTIR in a Sigma 38, you might well get overtaken by some long keel vintage designs, but they will be 60ft+ and cost more than my house.

 

[Bajansailor]

@Bajansailor - it sounds a lot like Sunstone an old S&S wooden boat that used to clean up in CHS (as it was then) in that late 80's and early 90's in the Solent and offshore. She by modern standards had a long keel although not all the way to the rudder.

Here is a link to her homepage -
http://www.sunstonesailing.com/

And Sunstone is currently for sale, after being in her previous ownership for almost 40 years, during which she has covered 200,000 miles offshore, including a voyage around the world.

Sparkman & Stephens 40ft Sloop 1965

 

[Carib]

Science aside, one big advantage of long keels for me is, quite simply, that I rather like the kinds of boat to which they tend to be attached.

 

[Laminar Flow]

I think you are missing the big point that most 'long keel' yachts of a given nominal length tend to have shorter lwl.
The best way to overcome the extra drag of a long keel is not more sail area, as that needs more ballast or a deeper keel to extract the power. The best way is a slightly bigger boat, in LWL, which may mean quite a bit bigger in LOA.
Simple example, racing under IRC an Impala 28 has to give time to a Contessa 32. You want something like a Contessa 35 if there was such a thing. But that's going to be a lot more £££. Do the RTIR in a Sigma 38, you might well get overtaken by some long keel vintage designs, but they will be 60ft+ and cost more than my house.

Hardly, which is why I specifically and only talk about speed/length ratios or relative speeds, not about absolute speeds. Adding sail area for light conditions hardly appears to be a problem for most boats. If you look at the graph, increase for frictional resistance, even, at higher relative speeds, is modest and, compared to the increase in form resistance, irrelevant.
If you are racing, then that is of course a different story, as a 1% increase in resistance will cause a loss in time of about 65 seconds over a course of 18.5 miles, half of which is to windward,
... but then I thought we were talking about cruising boats.

 

[TernVI]

...

The fact that boats like Dorade and Stormy Weather can, equipped with up-to-date sails and skillfully sailed, hold their own against much more modern boats goes to show that, on the front of displacement speeds, we have not made much progress for the better part of a century.
..

No, it just showsthat the handicap system works tolerably well.
These boats get an age allowance factor based on when they were designed.
CHS or whatever predicts their speed, creates a yardstick.

A lot of boats of the era of Sunstone are based on 'cheating' lwl by extending it as the boat heels.
The boats designed without an eye to yardsticks such as IOR, like pilot cutters, have none of those overhangs.
It's always a compromise, bigger=faster, but a bigger pilot cutter would cost more, they found their own optimum size according to their own constraints. Modern boats, IOR is out the window, bows get more vertical to weigh off speed against marina bill and build cost. There is nothing fundamentally good in performing well 'for the notional lwl' if the lwl could just be made bigger for the same 'cost', whether that's a money cost or a rating cost.

The physics of waves on water hasn't changed and isn't about to.

 

[Bajansailor]

Tern IV, how do you explain why boats like Stormy Weather, Sunstone, Curlew and many others were / are able to compete successfully in races with much more 'modern' boats of similar size, and still beat them boat for boat at the finish line (never mind massacring them on corrected time)?

 

[Buck Turgidson]

To plane, not surfing, requires, a displacement/length ratio of under 100

I stopped reading after this gem.

Apparently Sun Fast 3200, 3600 and 3300 can't plane as their displacement/length ratio is too high.........

 

[TernVI]

Tern IV, how do you explain why boats like Stormy Weather, Sunstone, Curlew and many others were / are able to compete successfully in races with much more 'modern' boats of similar size, and still beat them boat for boat at the finish line (never mind massacring them on corrected time)?

They have good ratings, partly due to age allowance.

If their shapes were that brilliant, what is stop Archambault from building similar boats brand new?

On elapsed time are these boats getting line honours very often? No!

Now and then they will sail a great tactical race and someone will write a magazine page about it. Because it's an exception.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

They have good ratings, partly due to age allowance.

If their shapes were that brilliant, what is stop Archambault from building similar boats brand new?

On elapsed time are these boats getting line honours very often? No!

Now and then they will sail a great tactical race and someone will write a magazine page about it. Because it's an exception.

correct. And a simple analysis of the past 4 or 5 years round the island race shows the real speed of various yacht designs.

 

[Bajansailor]

Oh dear.
All three of the boats that I mentioned above used to regularly and very consistently beat other boats (fin keel, similar length, non planing) over the line - and one of the reasons for this is that they were invariably sailed exceptionally well.

As to what is "stopping Archambault from building similar boats brand new?", the answer is simple - there is no demand for boats like this now.
Yes, people still want to win races, but they also want nice big ergonomic cockpits, swim platforms and other 'mod cons' - and the racing will be more fair if you are racing against other yachts that are similar to yours.
I used to crew on a quarter tonner many moons ago in races in the Solent - if the winds were light we would beat the Folkboats, and if the winds were strong they would beat us.
I appreciate that Stormy, Sunstone and Curlew were / are dinosaurs in comparison - and that they would not be able to compete now against similar length surfing sleds - but they could still give any of the older fin keel racing boats (non planing or surfing) a good run for their money when sailed very well.

 

[Laminar Flow]

I'm quite willing to learn, but I would like to see the benefits quantified, in numbers, please. Again, we are talking about the qualities of ocean going cruising boats and in what should be simply a technical discourse.

Years ago, I remember seeing a series of successive pictures of two intertwined and becalmed fleets of boats; one was a group of modern racing craft and the other a collection of gaff rigged Colin Archers. The next few images showed a gust sweeping through the fleets and by the final picture the Colin Archers had clearly pulled away from their modern brethren. What did I take away from this? No, not that Colin Archers are obviously superior performers compared to modern racers, but rather, firstly, a need to understand how the hell that was possible in the first place and secondly, a glimpse of an insight that some boats have a window of performance all of their own.

One of the few who argues here with any kind of authority on the subject of modern boat design is Flaming and, I must say, I much appreciate his considered input, though I may not always agree. There are others, of course who have significant practical experience on the subject of ocean sailing and have as such, in their own right, much of value to contribute to the discussion. I very much enjoy this part of the conversation.

But then of course one also has one's noisy punters as well and, if I were looking for that type of entertainment, I might as well switch to the lounge.
I never knew that spade rudders could elicit such passion; (I would like to hope that their wives and children benefit from the same kind of intense affection.)
Be that as it may, and no matter how phenomenally strong and efficient such rudders are purported to be, Spain's orcas seem to be making terribly short work of that type of installation these days.

 

[john_morris_uk]

I have no love of spade rudders to defend. It’s the irrational hatred of spade rudders I worry about. It’s often allied with some besotted notions about how long keeled boats are the answer to all your dreams in an ocean going yacht.

I’ve owned and sailed (and raced) long keeled boats and hugely enjoyed their seakeeping qualities but I don’t see them through rose tinted spectacles. In some ways they’re a pain in the backside. I’ve owned and raced fin keeled boats and sailed a good few that I never want to set foot on again outside a marina or anchorage.

My personal opinion’s are from sailing dozens of different hulls, some of them across oceans. I try to be open minded about things but I do admit to having an aversion to the historic addiction to long keeled boats amongst certain elements. I believe became a sort of ‘Ocean going yacht design’ idee fixee through the early literature and accounts of ocean sailing in small boats. If people have only ever sailed either lightweight racing yachts or yachts whose underwater profiles are designed around their accommodation demands with all the poor sailing characteristics that leads to, I can imagine them getting into a long keeled classic and them immediately buying into the idea that this is the better design for ocean sailing. What they don’t realise is that a well designed fin keeled with a decent forefoot and with good lines in her aft sections can behave just as well. What you lose is internal volume in the aft sections so to gain the internal accommodation people crave for you end up with a bigger longer boat. But as I repeatedly say, everything is a compromise.

What rudder you put in the back end is up to the designer. I’d prefer a skeg (as I’ve said before) but I’m happy to sail across the ocean with our spade on its 30mm solid stainless stock and internal structures supporting the bearings that you could hang the whole boat off.

All IMHO and no love affair with spade rudders from me. But I admit I do try and argue some sense into those who have bought into the lie about the only boats with decent sea keeping qualities are long keeled boats etc.