Which plotter?

[tillergirl]

I am afraid K maps are no good. I think they are ok the other side of the world (i.e. Asia) but for the East Coast no. Use a C-Map or Navionics. I (and Gladys) prefer C-Map but that version of C-Map doesn't (or didn't) have 12 months free update whereas Navionics does. Initially I used an Onwa Kcombo7A and a CP300i. The Kcombo had depth and AIS, the CP300i had the DSC link with the SH DSC. All that before the great theft event. The Kcombo was excellent and I replaced it with the insurance money. I like the Onwa so much tis year that I decided to upgrade and buy one of the first KM12X that came on the market this year (and a forumit has bought the Kcombo). I use Navionics on the Humminbird Helix. It's ok but I prefer the C-Map. I wish Onwa would add Imray but that is perhaps just a dream.

Frankly I think the 3D on Navionics is a waste of time. Other functions of Navionics are of course ok.

 

[ChromeDome]

I am afraid K maps are no good. I think they are ok the other side of the world (i.e. Asia) but for the East Coast no. Use a C-Map or Navionics. I (and Gladys) prefer C-Map but that version of C-Map doesn't (or didn't) have 12 months free update whereas Navionics does. Initially I used an Onwa Kcombo7A and a CP300i. The Kcombo had depth and AIS, the CP300i had the DSC link with the SH DSC. All that before the great theft event. The Kcombo was excellent and I replaced it with the insurance money. I like the Onwa so much tis year that I decided to upgrade and buy one of the first KM12X that came on the market this year (and a forumit has bought the Kcombo). I use Navionics on the Humminbird Helix. It's ok but I prefer the C-Map. I wish Onwa would add Imray but that is perhaps just a dream.

Frankly I think the 3D on Navionics is a waste of time. Other functions of Navionics are of course ok.

Fully agree, but as in previous post "Much easier if you know your requirements".
No reason to pay for features and a plotter to use them, if in reality you don't use them.

This is true in many aspects of life, as true as it is that requirements differ a lot.

I'm currently running C-Map and Navionics in parallel tablet/mobile to decide which one to dump. So far close to even but Navionics still a bit ahead.

Current plotter is on Navionics Platinum but due to reduced coverage and increased price (at the same time), I'm no longer a paying subscriber.

 

[Refueler]

Do you have view on Onwa's charts as supplied with the plotter 'K-charts' I believe. Giving Onwa some serious thought to replace a Standard Horizon CP300.

I have Onwa with K Charts and I am very happy with them. As good as or better than the Lowrance Charts I had with my Globalmap - which was good enough for Solent, English Channel, Baltics incl all the Stockholm Islands.

I have various other chart formats as well as 'paper' ... haven't had reason to complain ...

 

[Refueler]

Just to add ..... I know people who play what I call the 'doubles' game ...

I saw it with Lowrance and I see it with Onwa and Matsutec now. The free charts are downloaded and required area loaded up ... but for close in work - a Navionics card was at hand.
Some were adamant that there was a big difference ..... but interesting thing is .... I stayed with the freebies and followed same routes ... same channels ... same hazards ....

Each to their own ...

 

[tillergirl]

Perhaps I was unfair with C Map but I was only zooming in on the Estuary.

At the risk of asking the question that nobody ever answers: which is the most accurate electronic chart?

 

[dunedin]

Perhaps I was unfair with C Map but I was only zooming in on the Estuary.

At the risk of asking the question that nobody ever answers: which is the most accurate electronic chart?

In UK waters, the vast majority of the data on all of Navionics, CMAP, Imray et al charts is supplied from exactly the same UKHO data feed. The UKHO data may not be fully accurate (many areas in Scotland remain entirely “unsurveyed”to this day, and we regularly cross over a “rock“ and “shoal” the UKHO thinks exists in the busy Sound of Mull that has proven to be fictional and over 20m deep), but will be shown as the same on all the electronic leisure charts.
Each chart publisher augments this with other sources to fill gaps (eg leisure marinas etc) - but suspect these are also from pretty much the same sources.

But the main difference (other than colours and user interfaces) is the crowd sourced data that is increasingly available as an optional overlay. Which of these is best - or indeed if any are safe to reply on - will vary a lot by location, and preference. If choosing to use this type of overlay, user base is important - and here Navionics, and to a lesser degree C-Map, are clear leaders in user base in UK waters.

 

[tillergirl]

All that is correct but are Navionics and C-Map accurate compared to the UKHO feed?

 

[dunedin]

All that is correct but are Navionics and C-Map accurate compared to the UKHO feed?

With digital data feeds of vector data direct into a vector chart database, it is difficult to see why there would be any discrepancies. And Navionics, C-Map and Imray are very professional organisations.

Different when creating a paper or raster chart from a vector data feed, where more manual intervention is needed.

 

[tillergirl]

A couple of years ago I looked at an area of approx 3 square nautical miles using one electronic chart make. 4 major errors were present - buoys were missed completely and others were wrongly placed. These were not subject to recent moves; all had been there for a number of years. Of course when I mentioned the errors someone told the company and it got corrected. Another maker claimed it had up to date charts. When I got a new card I was amazed to find a major error. When I queried this I was told by the retailer that the database was up to date. I queried this with the manufacturer and discovered that the 'up to date' card I had received in April this year was dated March 2021!. The manufacturer eventually apologised (bit of an exaggeration) and said they were now bringing the database up to date and I would be supplied with a new card. Two weeks later I received a new card and finally it was up to date. I am afraid I don't regard this as professional. In the case of the 'up to date' card, I had to raise the problem quite a lot before they would act.

 

[superheat6k]

I am now on my third boat with Matsutec that I have fitted. Same kit as Onwa, but with different firmware and model numbers.

OK so it does integrate, but then neither does my Furuno Radar, Raymarine C80, nor Furuno plotter. It also has built in AIS function - transponder plus receiver.

This also means when one goes tits up the rest doesn't necessarily follow.

As for the radar, I am amazed at just how much folk will spend own devices that are at best used by most once or twice a year, and in some case ever.

 

[dunedin]

A couple of years ago I looked at an area of approx 3 square nautical miles using one electronic chart make. 4 major errors were present - buoys were missed completely and others were wrongly placed. These were not subject to recent moves; all had been there for a number of years. Of course when I mentioned the errors someone told the company and it got corrected. Another maker claimed it had up to date charts. When I got a new card I was amazed to find a major error. When I queried this I was told by the retailer that the database was up to date. I queried this with the manufacturer and discovered that the 'up to date' card I had received in April this year was dated March 2021!. The manufacturer eventually apologised (bit of an exaggeration) and said they were now bringing the database up to date and I would be supplied with a new card. Two weeks later I received a new card and finally it was up to date. I am afraid I don't regard this as professional. In the case of the 'up to date' card, I had to raise the problem quite a lot before they would act.

Dont know about your example of an out of date card. Most of the suppliers don‘t sell pre-filled cards any more, but get you to download the latest data online.
It would be interesting to know if your examples of missing or misplaced buoys were actually correct in the official UKHO data feed (which apparently is 3 months or so out of date itself, even after updates are applied at UKHO - which excludes any lead time to be applied to the UKHO master records). It is hard to imagine a leisure chart supplier going into a huge mass of electronic vector chart data and manually removing or amending data for a particular buoy. On the other hand, one could imagine them trying to provide updates not yet on the official UKHO feed, and potentially getting differences from unofficial sources being used to fill the gap?

 

[Refueler]

Dont know about your example of an out of date card. Most of the suppliers don‘t sell pre-filled cards any more, but get you to download the latest data online.
It would be interesting to know if your examples of missing or misplaced buoys were actually correct in the official UKHO data feed (which apparently is 3 months or so out of date itself, even after updates are applied at UKHO - which excludes any lead time to be applied to the UKHO master records). It is hard to imagine a leisure chart supplier going into a huge mass of electronic vector chart data and manually removing or amending data for a particular buoy. On the other hand, one could imagine them trying to provide updates not yet on the official UKHO feed, and potentially getting differences from unofficial sources being used to fill the gap?

Chart corrections are always out of date regardless of paper or electronic. Think back to changing position of a shoal / buoy and then few weeks later change it back again to previous position ...
For the Leisure Industry - updating chart cards is at best SLLLLLLOOOOOOOOWWWWWWW ..... boaters updates are nowhere near as often as commercial ECDIS. Commercial shipping can have auto update weekly via satcoms or via data transfer (CD or user instigated com link). In fact depending on the corrections - can be shorter than a week.

As to corrections : EVERYONE regardless of who / what - are able to advise any HO of errors or new items. But action on that info is subject to receiving confirmation from other sources / checking. Its not just a matter of some boater telling HO about an item and HO jumps into action.
All charts - Electronic or Paper are based on the original 'paper chart' which previously were usually etched plates, that then upgraded to digital processing. Didn't matter whether Raster or Vector - base was same. The largest supplier of chart data being UKHO - a historical fact having been a mainstay of Royal Navy and the Empire.
Other HO's such as USA, India, China and many others - have added and expanded to exchange vast amounts of info - creating what can only be described as a huge mine of info.

The question of which is better ? Navionics ... CMap ... Bluechart .... KChart .... Mapsource as examples - comes down to the intended market and their presentation of info to user on screen.
Personally - I have no use for fancy screen antics .... I prefer a plain chart depiction on screen. KChart / CMap / Lowrance suit me fine as they follow closely the paper form.

I know a number of users who swear by XXXX chart format - but when you observe their plotters - many of the features they swear by are actually TURNED OFF !

 

[tillergirl]

Dont know about your example of an out of date card. Most of the suppliers don‘t sell pre-filled cards any more, but get you to download the latest data online.
It would be interesting to know if your examples of missing or misplaced buoys were actually correct in the official UKHO data feed (which apparently is 3 months or so out of date itself, even after updates are applied at UKHO - which excludes any lead time to be applied to the UKHO master records). It is hard to imagine a leisure chart supplier going into a huge mass of electronic vector chart data and manually removing or amending data for a particular buoy. On the other hand, one could imagine them trying to provide updates not yet on the official UKHO feed, and potentially getting differences from unofficial sources being used to fill the gap?

Oh dear, of course we know retailers don't sell pre-filled cards anymore. In the example, the retailer told me that they had prepared the card from their 'database'. What they didn't tell me was that the database was SO out of date. and they didn't tell me the date until I challenged the obvious omissions. Hence I raised the issue with the manufacturer. I have the record of all the emails and the so called 'up to date' card is available. However I willl not identify either manufacturer. The last thing we need is for the moderators to close the thread.

Good, you are interested in the examples of missing/misplaced buoys. First admission though. It is 3 misplaced/missing buoys not 4. The fouth issue was the drying heights on the electronic chart (I wonder if that is why a local authority reported a 'Less water reported' notice in exactly the same place).

Let us call the first buoy that is missing Buoy A. Buoy A was placed ages ago. I have just picked up a paper chart at random which is dated September 1985 and the buoy is recorded as there in place. Certainly not an updating issue I think. I could go through a load of charts but I had a quick look at 2001, 2005, 2010, 2015, 2018, 2019, 2020, and 2021. The buoy has been recorded there each time. Would you accept that this wasn't an update glitch or something like that. Seems to me to be poor QA.

Buoy B certainly is more recent but it is in Admiralty Charts since 2015. The buoy has been recorded again each year. Seems to me to be poor QA.

Buoy C was missed placed. That buoy asmittedly is a minor buoy but it has been there for ages. I have gone back to 1996 and it was there then. I admit I have bothered to go back any further. The misplace was 0.9nm. Seems to me to be poor QA.

All I asked was if anybody knew which was the most accurate electronic chart. I didn't criticise any of the quoted makes. And I don't know how they do it or they policy about Notices to Mariners. It just seems to be to be more important to know about accuracy than the colour (although legibility is important). The problem is, I knew about the errors because I know the waters quite well like many on the East Coast. But if I am using an electronic chart in an area I don't know, how can I know which is the most accurate (and is genuinely 'up to date').

 

[Refueler]

Let me ask a question :

If on approaches and you see a buoy ... lets say it does not agree with your plotter ........... what are you going to do ? Follow the plotter or the buoy ?

Given East Coast as you keep saying ... its a done deal you believe the eyeball ... East Coast from Dover up well into N.Sea is notorious for shifting channels and buoys being moved to try keep up with it ...

Hard to even guess how many trips into Thames with Pilots who even they had to rely on Mk1 eyeball ....

 

[tillergirl]

Good question! The banks off Great Yarmouth and Lowestoft are the most frequent changed banks. Having monitored Notices over the past 10 years I reckon the officially moved v off station are about 50:1 On the other hand, at one 'local' buoyage scheme, I would reckon the ratio was 2:1 (and the score of 2 only happened because one of them got moved last week!)

We need to take stock of all the information.

 

[Dilemma]

MFD Replacement

I had a 2007 installed 12” Raymarine C120 at our chart table which became unreliable. Because I couldn’t rely on the C120, I navigated using the Navionics app running on a tablet linked via the on board WiFi to the NMEA data from the installed ST60 instruments, GPS and AIS.


I have now removed the defunct C120 and built a replacement with a Raspberry Pi4 running Android 12 with a Beetronics 15” display. It fits perfectly into the panel that housed the C120.


I have had it running at home displaying Navionics, Windy, Victron Connect, Navily and the Google Chrome and inked to my accounts. The apps can run in split screen or in multiple windows.


I will take it to the boat in early September and check that it interfaces to NMEA data from the existing ST60 instruments, GPS and AIS in the same way that my iPad and phone does.

I don't need it to be waterproof so that's not an issue for me.

 

[Refueler]

MFD Replacement

I had a 2007 installed 12” Raymarine C120 at our chart table which became unreliable. Because I couldn’t rely on the C120, I navigated using the Navionics app running on a tablet linked via the on board WiFi to the NMEA data from the installed ST60 instruments, GPS and AIS.


I have now removed the defunct C120 and built a replacement with a Raspberry Pi4 running Android 12 with a Beetronics 15” display. It fits perfectly into the panel that housed the C120.


I have had it running at home displaying Navionics, Windy, Victron Connect, Navily and the Google Chrome and inked to my accounts. The apps can run in split screen or in multiple windows.


I will take it to the boat in early September and check that it interfaces to NMEA data from the existing ST60 instruments, GPS and AIS in the same way that my iPad and phone does.

I don't need it to be waterproof so that's not an issue for me.

This is just my point ..... as in RC and many other items - traditional Branding is old hat and being surpassed by other forms.

 

[Perrycas]

I am now on my third boat with Matsutec that I have fitted. Same kit as Onwa, but with different firmware and model numbers.

OK so it does integrate, but then neither does my Furuno Radar, Raymarine C80, nor Furuno plotter. It also has built in AIS function - transponder plus receiver.

This also means when one goes tits up the rest doesn't necessarily follow.

As for the radar, I am amazed at just how much folk will spend own devices that are at best used by most once or twice a year, and in some case ever.

yes I used this reasoning with not having a combination, but series of stand-alones. Same for your comments on the radar. It came with the boat. So far I have never really used it.