charles_reed
Well-Known Member
Market differentiation
which new small outboard would you get?
- Thread starter nyx
- Start date
charles_reed
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
The pollution effect of a small 2-stroke is negligible compared with a similar sized 4-stroke. The 4-stroke has a more complicated service requirement and has the added complication of needing to be stored and transported in the correct orientation. Pound for pound (or euro for euro) the 2-stroke sub 6hp is by far the most cost effective solution.
Personally, I'd only consider a four stroke for 20+hp needs. As I stated earlier, there are still "new old stock" 2-strokes available in the UK and the CI's are not governed by EU rules so there may well be new 2-strokes available there. (Guernsey, Jersey and possibly Alderney).
Anyone who thinks the residual oil deposits from a modern 2-stroke, running on a 2% mix are a problem is an ecomaniac ignoring the science and maths in the equation.
It's a bit like banning TBT antifouling for leisure vessels but allowing it for bulk carriers, tankers and trans-oceanic container vessels.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yours is an interesting reply and I agree entirely with all but your first point which appears at odds with most of the published research.
If you're describing tcp you may be right, but that does depend upon a tremendous number of assumptions, starting with whether 100:1 fuel/oil mix is the optimum for 2 strokes.
The pollution effect of a small 2-stroke is negligible compared with a similar sized 4-stroke. The 4-stroke has a more complicated service requirement and has the added complication of needing to be stored and transported in the correct orientation. Pound for pound (or euro for euro) the 2-stroke sub 6hp is by far the most cost effective solution.
Personally, I'd only consider a four stroke for 20+hp needs. As I stated earlier, there are still "new old stock" 2-strokes available in the UK and the CI's are not governed by EU rules so there may well be new 2-strokes available there. (Guernsey, Jersey and possibly Alderney).
Anyone who thinks the residual oil deposits from a modern 2-stroke, running on a 2% mix are a problem is an ecomaniac ignoring the science and maths in the equation.
It's a bit like banning TBT antifouling for leisure vessels but allowing it for bulk carriers, tankers and trans-oceanic container vessels.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yours is an interesting reply and I agree entirely with all but your first point which appears at odds with most of the published research.
If you're describing tcp you may be right, but that does depend upon a tremendous number of assumptions, starting with whether 100:1 fuel/oil mix is the optimum for 2 strokes.
wotayottie
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
On a 2.7mtr flubber 3 - 4hp is enough ... 5 is just over if not careful. Thats with 2st's ... With a 4st - a 4.5hp is probably better but then you pay penalty on weight.
IMHO of course !
As regards pricing on 2st's .... understandable as supply dries up ... people still want simple, fill with fuel, pull and go 2 st'rs ... without the 4 st'r limitations and higher cost servicing etc.
[/ QUOTE ]
A bhp is a bhp whatever type of engine it comes from - and the conversion into thrust depends on the prop and the gearing which is independant of whether the engine is 2 stroke or 4 stroke.
As for simplicity, which is simpler - filling with petrol or having to measure and mix fuel and special oil? Which usually gets spilled on your hands / flubber and has to be washed off etc.
A 2 stroke has the advantage of fewer components and is therefore inherently lighter. It has a lower compression ratio, is therefore thermodynamically less efficient and uses more fuel. The 4 stroke has the complications of a sump and the issue of lying down. Cant think of any other clear differences at the mo, but I'm sure there are some.
Cant imagine servicing costs is relevant - surely nobody pays £40 per hour or whatever to service something so cheap as a small outboard when all that is required is so easy to diy. Bit like the motyor mower in that respect.
Dont ignore the advantages of an air cooled engine in the Honda. No impellore to change, no water cooling to corrode. OK no water cooling to deaden noise.
Notwithstanding the above I have an almost unused Johnson 3hp 2 stroke that the previous owner was daft enough to get serviced by the dealer just before I bought the boat andput the engine into store at ho,me. If some 2 stroke enthusiats is willing to offer me a good but sensible price I will happily sell it and buy something else.
On a 2.7mtr flubber 3 - 4hp is enough ... 5 is just over if not careful. Thats with 2st's ... With a 4st - a 4.5hp is probably better but then you pay penalty on weight.
IMHO of course !
As regards pricing on 2st's .... understandable as supply dries up ... people still want simple, fill with fuel, pull and go 2 st'rs ... without the 4 st'r limitations and higher cost servicing etc.
[/ QUOTE ]
A bhp is a bhp whatever type of engine it comes from - and the conversion into thrust depends on the prop and the gearing which is independant of whether the engine is 2 stroke or 4 stroke.
As for simplicity, which is simpler - filling with petrol or having to measure and mix fuel and special oil? Which usually gets spilled on your hands / flubber and has to be washed off etc.
A 2 stroke has the advantage of fewer components and is therefore inherently lighter. It has a lower compression ratio, is therefore thermodynamically less efficient and uses more fuel. The 4 stroke has the complications of a sump and the issue of lying down. Cant think of any other clear differences at the mo, but I'm sure there are some.
Cant imagine servicing costs is relevant - surely nobody pays £40 per hour or whatever to service something so cheap as a small outboard when all that is required is so easy to diy. Bit like the motyor mower in that respect.
Dont ignore the advantages of an air cooled engine in the Honda. No impellore to change, no water cooling to corrode. OK no water cooling to deaden noise.
Notwithstanding the above I have an almost unused Johnson 3hp 2 stroke that the previous owner was daft enough to get serviced by the dealer just before I bought the boat andput the engine into store at ho,me. If some 2 stroke enthusiats is willing to offer me a good but sensible price I will happily sell it and buy something else.
nyx
New Member
ive always assumed a 2stroke engine of any kind has a inherently shorter service life than a 4stroke. i dont know where this thought came from but i suppose as long as the 2stroke is made from good quality materials and the oil level in the petrol is correct then a 2stroke should wear at the same rate as a 4stroke.
kirielad
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
How about:
It's illegal to sell them, other than remaining stock, in the EU for eco-reasons (whether you or other agree or otherwise is moot).
If you want to buy one of the remaining - so be it - but if you (I don't mean YOU personally) attempt to circumvent the law just to avoid having to carry a few extra kilos down the beach then you are as guilty as any grey importer. Also, you are guilty of pumping that blue oily sh*t into the air, whether or not you think it makes much difference to the environment - that's the reasoning and the law.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think one of the elements in TCW-3 oil for 2-strokes is that it has to be bio-degradable. I run a pair of 2 stroke Tohatsu's, a 3.5 and a 9.8, and rarely, if ever notice any 'blue oily sh*t'. I think this is a massively exaggerated (if not totally non-existent) problem. If care is taken over the oil/fuel mix then no issue arises.
2 stroke based scooters are an increasingly popular cheap transport choice for 16 year -olds. If my experience is anything like typical, these engines are run flat out (to reach the legal max of 30 mph) asap yet are remarkably smoke free, -considering that careful 2 stroke mixing is probably not at the forefront of every 16 year olds mind /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif.
How about:
It's illegal to sell them, other than remaining stock, in the EU for eco-reasons (whether you or other agree or otherwise is moot).
If you want to buy one of the remaining - so be it - but if you (I don't mean YOU personally) attempt to circumvent the law just to avoid having to carry a few extra kilos down the beach then you are as guilty as any grey importer. Also, you are guilty of pumping that blue oily sh*t into the air, whether or not you think it makes much difference to the environment - that's the reasoning and the law.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think one of the elements in TCW-3 oil for 2-strokes is that it has to be bio-degradable. I run a pair of 2 stroke Tohatsu's, a 3.5 and a 9.8, and rarely, if ever notice any 'blue oily sh*t'. I think this is a massively exaggerated (if not totally non-existent) problem. If care is taken over the oil/fuel mix then no issue arises.
2 stroke based scooters are an increasingly popular cheap transport choice for 16 year -olds. If my experience is anything like typical, these engines are run flat out (to reach the legal max of 30 mph) asap yet are remarkably smoke free, -considering that careful 2 stroke mixing is probably not at the forefront of every 16 year olds mind /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif.
Refueler
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
A bhp is a bhp whatever type of engine it comes from - and the conversion into thrust depends on the prop and the gearing which is independant of whether the engine is 2 stroke or 4 stroke.
[/ QUOTE ]
Having used both i9n various sizes - I equate the average 4st ob as like a diesel in a car. It may quote same HP - but performance wise leaves a shagged out horse looking good ! Sorry but true. The 2st will generally rev higher and give better response because it's firing 2x as much as a 4st.
[ QUOTE ]
As for simplicity, which is simpler - filling with petrol or having to measure and mix fuel and special oil? Which usually gets spilled on your hands / flubber and has to be washed off etc.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh dear ... the EXACT oil measure argument - sorry but 2st is tolerant of oil mix about the fig. to use. 45-1, 55-1 is so small a difference to 50-1 as to be insignificant. And many engines are supposed designed for 100-1 but recc'd to run on 50-1 that this argumentr becomes even more irrelevant. As to washing of flubber etc. !! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif C'mon - so you never spilled gasoline filling your 4st'r ? The oil in 21st'r is usually mixed in at home / at garage before fumbling about in a dinghy. And is such a small amount - whether 2st mix or not spilled makes no odds - it's near all gasoline.
[ QUOTE ]
A 2 stroke has the advantage of fewer components and is therefore inherently lighter. It has a lower compression ratio, is therefore thermodynamically less efficient and uses more fuel. The 4 stroke has the complications of a sump and the issue of lying down. Cant think of any other clear differences at the mo, but I'm sure there are some.
[/ QUOTE ]
But still enough to make many people as well as myselt want to use 2st's.
[ QUOTE ]
Cant imagine servicing costs is relevant - surely nobody pays £40 per hour or whatever to service something so cheap as a small outboard when all that is required is so easy to diy. Bit like the motyor mower in that respect.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not everyone is a dab hand with a spanner. And I'd rather pay for service on a 2st than a 4st - with it's additional items to service. My 2st'rs haven't been serviced for years and still run like new. Try that with a 4st !
[ QUOTE ]
Dont ignore the advantages of an air cooled engine in the Honda. No impellore to change, no water cooling to corrode. OK no water cooling to deaden noise.
[/ QUOTE ]
There area also air-cooled 2st's ... Yamaha B5 for example - old but still plenty giving excellent service.
[ QUOTE ]
Notwithstanding the above I have an almost unused Johnson 3hp 2 stroke that the previous owner was daft enough to get serviced by the dealer just before I bought the boat andput the engine into store at ho,me. If some 2 stroke enthusiats is willing to offer me a good but sensible price I will happily sell it and buy something else.
[/ QUOTE ]
I would if nearer home - but cannot. If you are serious - I'm sure an offer will come up ... but of course due to peoples demand - what is reasonable offer !! ??
A bhp is a bhp whatever type of engine it comes from - and the conversion into thrust depends on the prop and the gearing which is independant of whether the engine is 2 stroke or 4 stroke.
[/ QUOTE ]
Having used both i9n various sizes - I equate the average 4st ob as like a diesel in a car. It may quote same HP - but performance wise leaves a shagged out horse looking good ! Sorry but true. The 2st will generally rev higher and give better response because it's firing 2x as much as a 4st.
[ QUOTE ]
As for simplicity, which is simpler - filling with petrol or having to measure and mix fuel and special oil? Which usually gets spilled on your hands / flubber and has to be washed off etc.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh dear ... the EXACT oil measure argument - sorry but 2st is tolerant of oil mix about the fig. to use. 45-1, 55-1 is so small a difference to 50-1 as to be insignificant. And many engines are supposed designed for 100-1 but recc'd to run on 50-1 that this argumentr becomes even more irrelevant. As to washing of flubber etc. !! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif C'mon - so you never spilled gasoline filling your 4st'r ? The oil in 21st'r is usually mixed in at home / at garage before fumbling about in a dinghy. And is such a small amount - whether 2st mix or not spilled makes no odds - it's near all gasoline.
[ QUOTE ]
A 2 stroke has the advantage of fewer components and is therefore inherently lighter. It has a lower compression ratio, is therefore thermodynamically less efficient and uses more fuel. The 4 stroke has the complications of a sump and the issue of lying down. Cant think of any other clear differences at the mo, but I'm sure there are some.
[/ QUOTE ]
But still enough to make many people as well as myselt want to use 2st's.
[ QUOTE ]
Cant imagine servicing costs is relevant - surely nobody pays £40 per hour or whatever to service something so cheap as a small outboard when all that is required is so easy to diy. Bit like the motyor mower in that respect.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not everyone is a dab hand with a spanner. And I'd rather pay for service on a 2st than a 4st - with it's additional items to service. My 2st'rs haven't been serviced for years and still run like new. Try that with a 4st !
[ QUOTE ]
Dont ignore the advantages of an air cooled engine in the Honda. No impellore to change, no water cooling to corrode. OK no water cooling to deaden noise.
[/ QUOTE ]
There area also air-cooled 2st's ... Yamaha B5 for example - old but still plenty giving excellent service.
[ QUOTE ]
Notwithstanding the above I have an almost unused Johnson 3hp 2 stroke that the previous owner was daft enough to get serviced by the dealer just before I bought the boat andput the engine into store at ho,me. If some 2 stroke enthusiats is willing to offer me a good but sensible price I will happily sell it and buy something else.
[/ QUOTE ]
I would if nearer home - but cannot. If you are serious - I'm sure an offer will come up ... but of course due to peoples demand - what is reasonable offer !! ??
C
Chrusty1
Guest
It's quite funny the way this thread has developed into an argument, all the OP wants is a wee motor for a teenager to pootle about Chichester harbour with.
Adding to the fray as it were, 4 stokes are very good at driving displacement hulls, pound for pound, if you want to get an inflatable on to the plane, you would definately be better to use say a 6hp 2 stroke, than a 6hp four stroke, because of the 2 strokes snappier acceleration, and sometimes slightly more revs.
If all you want is a small outboard to pootle out to your mooring and back, or to use on your boats tender, I think the 2.5-3.5 four strokes are quieter, smoother, cause less polution, and annoyance to other people. As small yacht auxilaries, the 4 stroke wins hands down, simply because of the extra torque available and the other things previously mentioned, the sail drive versions are excellent.
Personally I don't care what the OP decides to do, he has to do what he feels is right for him, so some of these yaboo types of posts are a bit silly in my not always very humble opinion.
2 stroke enthusiasts are going to have to accept that in the end 2 strokes will be banned altogether, as they are now on a lot of inland waters, canals/resevoirs and the like.
Yabooooooooo! give up smoking, you nasty poluting buggers! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Adding to the fray as it were, 4 stokes are very good at driving displacement hulls, pound for pound, if you want to get an inflatable on to the plane, you would definately be better to use say a 6hp 2 stroke, than a 6hp four stroke, because of the 2 strokes snappier acceleration, and sometimes slightly more revs.
If all you want is a small outboard to pootle out to your mooring and back, or to use on your boats tender, I think the 2.5-3.5 four strokes are quieter, smoother, cause less polution, and annoyance to other people. As small yacht auxilaries, the 4 stroke wins hands down, simply because of the extra torque available and the other things previously mentioned, the sail drive versions are excellent.
Personally I don't care what the OP decides to do, he has to do what he feels is right for him, so some of these yaboo types of posts are a bit silly in my not always very humble opinion.
2 stroke enthusiasts are going to have to accept that in the end 2 strokes will be banned altogether, as they are now on a lot of inland waters, canals/resevoirs and the like.
Yabooooooooo! give up smoking, you nasty poluting buggers! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
nyx
New Member
2 stroke enthusiasts are going to have to accept that in the end 2 strokes will be banned altogether, as they are now on a lot of inland waters, canals/reservoirs and the like.
have the 2 strokes been banned from the bw waterways altogether as i also wanted to have a tootle about the canals when i visit relatives up north.
i really appreciate ALL the replies and a bit of light hearted bickering is not going to scare me off a really welcoming forum.
have the 2 strokes been banned from the bw waterways altogether as i also wanted to have a tootle about the canals when i visit relatives up north.
i really appreciate ALL the replies and a bit of light hearted bickering is not going to scare me off a really welcoming forum.
wotayottie
Well-Known Member
" My 2st'rs haven't been serviced for years and still run like new. Try that with a 4st ! " . Havent got a 4st O/B but the 4 stroke lawnmower had done 19 years with a couple of oil changes until the carb got blocked by dirt.
The power argument is nonsense - defies the laws of physics. I tried to be dispassionate and technically accurate but I can see you have fixed views.
The power argument is nonsense - defies the laws of physics. I tried to be dispassionate and technically accurate but I can see you have fixed views.
charles_reed
Well-Known Member
<<2 stroke based scooters are an increasingly popular cheap transport choice for 16 year -olds. If my experience is anything like typical, these engines are run flat out (to reach the legal max of 30 mph) asap yet are remarkably smoke free, -considering that careful 2 stroke mixing is probably not at the forefront of every 16 year olds mind>>
You'll find, without exception in modern scooters, that the oil isn't a premix, but metered in. One of the reasons for that was to get the emission levels right.
If you watch a scooter engine under heavy load you'll see the blue exhaust of high levels of oil injection.
I'd support your answer to the previous poster, they're indulging in a bit of eco-hysteria. But the original study, done in the early 80's, did illustrate very convincingly, that 2-stroke outboards were killing the Everglades. Much of that damage was due to them going there at all.
Ironically it was all started by the chief designer for OMC!!
You'll find, without exception in modern scooters, that the oil isn't a premix, but metered in. One of the reasons for that was to get the emission levels right.
If you watch a scooter engine under heavy load you'll see the blue exhaust of high levels of oil injection.
I'd support your answer to the previous poster, they're indulging in a bit of eco-hysteria. But the original study, done in the early 80's, did illustrate very convincingly, that 2-stroke outboards were killing the Everglades. Much of that damage was due to them going there at all.
Ironically it was all started by the chief designer for OMC!!
C
Chrusty1
Guest
[ QUOTE ]
2 stroke enthusiasts are going to have to accept that in the end 2 strokes will be banned altogether, as they are now on a lot of inland waters, canals/reservoirs and the like.
have the 2 strokes been banned from the bw waterways altogether as i also wanted to have a tootle about the canals when i visit relatives up north.
i really appreciate ALL the replies and a bit of light hearted bickering is not going to scare me off a really welcoming forum.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hi Nick, best to contact British Waterways, they will tell you what the score is. I have a feeling that you would be alright with a two stroke at the moment?
2 stroke enthusiasts are going to have to accept that in the end 2 strokes will be banned altogether, as they are now on a lot of inland waters, canals/reservoirs and the like.
have the 2 strokes been banned from the bw waterways altogether as i also wanted to have a tootle about the canals when i visit relatives up north.
i really appreciate ALL the replies and a bit of light hearted bickering is not going to scare me off a really welcoming forum.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hi Nick, best to contact British Waterways, they will tell you what the score is. I have a feeling that you would be alright with a two stroke at the moment?
Refueler
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
" My 2st'rs haven't been serviced for years and still run like new. Try that with a 4st ! " . Havent got a 4st O/B but the 4 stroke lawnmower had done 19 years with a couple of oil changes until the carb got blocked by dirt.
The power argument is nonsense - defies the laws of physics. I tried to be dispassionate and technically accurate but I can see you have fixed views.
[/ QUOTE ]
No need to be niggled about it ! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif My views are strong opinions - not fixed in stone. They are based on observation and use of various engines in many different jobs ... outboards, generators, pumps, strimmers, garden tractors, lawn-mowers, scooters, motor cycles, mopeds etc.
I am ready to change sides when and if the evidence I observe first hand shows my opinion to be need of change. I like to evolve through direct observation, not follow trend or others doctrine. I know that my love of Seagull Outboards is outweighed by their tendency to cough large amounts of fuel / oil around .... so I can see 'sense' /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif. But my 1x Mariner, 2x Johnsons ( all 2 st's ) are clean running engines and I cannot see point of swapping them out. The two soviet engines are a different story - 30hp Veta and 25hp Neptune and they are likely once repaired to be not so clean running. Haven't decided what to do about that yet ...
" My 2st'rs haven't been serviced for years and still run like new. Try that with a 4st ! " . Havent got a 4st O/B but the 4 stroke lawnmower had done 19 years with a couple of oil changes until the carb got blocked by dirt.
The power argument is nonsense - defies the laws of physics. I tried to be dispassionate and technically accurate but I can see you have fixed views.
[/ QUOTE ]
No need to be niggled about it ! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif My views are strong opinions - not fixed in stone. They are based on observation and use of various engines in many different jobs ... outboards, generators, pumps, strimmers, garden tractors, lawn-mowers, scooters, motor cycles, mopeds etc.
I am ready to change sides when and if the evidence I observe first hand shows my opinion to be need of change. I like to evolve through direct observation, not follow trend or others doctrine. I know that my love of Seagull Outboards is outweighed by their tendency to cough large amounts of fuel / oil around .... so I can see 'sense' /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif. But my 1x Mariner, 2x Johnsons ( all 2 st's ) are clean running engines and I cannot see point of swapping them out. The two soviet engines are a different story - 30hp Veta and 25hp Neptune and they are likely once repaired to be not so clean running. Haven't decided what to do about that yet ...
nyx
New Member
i agree that in time it's highly likely that 2strokes will be bannd on most slow moving water due to the oil residue hanging about in the water.
the noise does spoil the enjoyment of the nature and will probably get a small electric outboard for the small amount of time i;ll potter about the canals at less than a few hrs a years.
ive been given a good price on a new Yamaha 4st and will probably order that but a neighbour has a 1996 mercury 4hp 2str which has just come back from a service which cost £90(with receipt) and he want £200 for it so I'm trying that out later on the sea.
the noise does spoil the enjoyment of the nature and will probably get a small electric outboard for the small amount of time i;ll potter about the canals at less than a few hrs a years.
ive been given a good price on a new Yamaha 4st and will probably order that but a neighbour has a 1996 mercury 4hp 2str which has just come back from a service which cost £90(with receipt) and he want £200 for it so I'm trying that out later on the sea.
C
Chrusty1
Guest
200 squids isn't a bad price for the Merc, and it will shove your flubber along well.......Only if you buy it, don't speak to me anymore, you nasty polluting little man! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
As for that Nigel.....We all know he has a vested interest in oil, and he was probably banished to the Baltic, because of his nasty polluting habits! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
By the way, does anybody remember Ocean Outboards?? They were a dreadful 4 stroke air cooled monstrocity, I had one on a Silhouette way back in the early seventies, terrible thing it was, nearly shook the poor little Silhouette to bits! It's probably how I got tinitus! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
As for that Nigel.....We all know he has a vested interest in oil, and he was probably banished to the Baltic, because of his nasty polluting habits! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
By the way, does anybody remember Ocean Outboards?? They were a dreadful 4 stroke air cooled monstrocity, I had one on a Silhouette way back in the early seventies, terrible thing it was, nearly shook the poor little Silhouette to bits! It's probably how I got tinitus! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
nyx
New Member
i was in vietnam last year and those outboards were truly dreadful.a shaft striaght from th bottom of the engine so the prop was at 45deg to the water.
tons of blue smoke everywhere.
tons of blue smoke everywhere.