Which new instruments

Can't help with N2K wind. My N2K network consists of the DST 800, a Garmin GPS, Garmin VHF/AIS and a pair of Garmin GMI10s. I also have a vYacht multiplexor which transmits this all over wifi. An offset set on one or other of the GMI10s will apply to both GMI10s and anything on the wifi network. Not sure where the settings are stored, but i suspect in the transducer. Settings are all retained after turning displays off (be pretty crap otherwise) but are also retained if a display is removed or all of the boat batteries are disconnected completely.
 
Ok next negative for raymarine is that it seems if you want to upgrade an i70s or raymarine sensors with any future firmware updates you have to have a raymarine mfd to do so?

Seems garmin and b&g triton2 will both allow you to do firmware updates without an mfd.

So autopilot notwithstanding i am erring towards b&g or garmin. Native nmea2000 sensors as well.
 
roblpm said:
Its just really irritating that they can't tell me that and what happens when the system is turned off and on again. Does the itc5 retain the settings? Does the i70s set them up again on boot up?
Click to expand...

You could take the ITC-5 completely out and it will retain its settings. No problem having no power.

I believe that the current Raymarine pack uses the smart DST800 which plugs straight into the backbone without the need to go through the ITC-5, similar to the Garmin. See here: http://www.raymarine.com/view/?id=17721

Personally, I like the Raymarine because of the plugs, and the i70 because of the AIS display. However, it is worth looking at the prices - eg a Garmin triple pack + an additional i70 might be good value.
 
Pye_End said:
As a matter of interest, how does that work?
Click to expand...

The triton2 has a Usb Interface (from The Manual)

Software update
The Triton2
includes a USB port of the back of the units. You use this
port for software updates.
You can update the software for the Triton2
unit itself and for NMEA
2000 sensors connected to the network from the Triton2
.
You can check the units software version from the About dialog.
 
Pye_End said:
You could take the ITC-5 completely out and it will retain its settings. No problem having no power.

I believe that the current Raymarine pack uses the smart DST800 which plugs straight into the backbone without the need to go through the ITC-5, similar to the Garmin. See here: http://www.raymarine.com/view/?id=17721

Personally, I like the Raymarine because of the plugs, and the i70 because of the AIS display. However, it is worth looking at the prices - eg a Garmin triple pack + an additional i70 might be good value.
Click to expand...

Thanks. However that means you are getting am extra box (itc5) just for the wind transducer.

Slowly i am erring towards b&g if it uses standard nmea2000 plugs. No extra boxes? Just a network with a display or 2 and 2 transducers?
 
Simrad systems can be updated with a magic box and software which connects to the N2k bus. May be a dealer item.

I picked up a secondhand ST70+ (?) to calibrate the DST800 for use with Maxsea Timezero. (My Furuno and Simrad displays being unable to do this .....)
The ST70+ allows you to set several calibration points, at different speeds.
Not sure what the Garmin does nowadays. It used to apply a single calibration factor, I think. It's been a while since I went through this.

Airmar used to have some horrid software which allows some changes to a DST800, but not the speed calibration.
The Airmar manual for the DST800 is worth a read.
 
Well a response from b&g which wasn't what i expected...... I thought the dst800 would be fine and the wind would be have the problem...... I think maybe all the manufacturers just want you to have a complete system of their gear. Which is a bit unrealistic these days with the onset of cheap tablets, phones etc.

Assuming you are planning to use a 608 mast
head unit the depth and wind calibration is stored in the sensors so this data would appear correct.*


Boat speed calibration is slightly different in that the calibration value is transmitted system wide and the calculation to correct is locally carried out in each display. This means boat speed calibrated via Triton 2 o Zeus 2/3 will display correctly on all B&G displays but likely not come through correct on your N2k to WiFi device.*
 
So i might have to start a business....

N2k instruments. Standard connectors. A standard WiFi box. And some pc software that runs calibration routines.

Then add displays etc yourself.

These b&g processors that cost thousands have surely had their day.

Actually maybe this is a racing system rather than a cruising system.
 
Ok. Still procrastinating.

I may carry on with my old stowe sensors so as not to run a new mast cable and install a new log.

The shipmodul appears to be pretty clever.

The I70s appears to output nmea2000 pgns as well as input them.

Does anyone know if the i70s can calibrate any old nmea2000 pgns and then reoutput them corrected? I think nmea 2000 has a device instance. So I can use the corrected pgn on the network if this works.
 
roblpm said:
The I70s appears to output nmea2000 pgns as well as input them.

Does anyone know if the i70s can calibrate any old nmea2000 pgns and then reoutput them corrected? I think nmea 2000 has a device instance. So I can use the corrected pgn on the network if this works.
Click to expand...

I've seen no evidence that the i70 outputs depth in a PGN. I expect it will just output PGNs necessary for managing the protocol or for configuring other boxes. I have the full list of PGNs from the NMEA website. Do you have a list of which ones the i70 is supposed to output - I can't find it in the manual I have, unlike most bits of Raymarine kit I have.

By the way, although my i70 was able to identify the Shipmodul as the source of depth data it wouldn't configure it. I suspect the configuration PGNs are effectively proprietarised - i.e technically meet the standard but only understood by Raymarine kit. I've worked on protocol standards in my day job (non-marine) and PGN126208 is a classic for easy 'proprietarisation'.
 
lpdsn said:
I've seen no evidence that the i70 outputs depth in a PGN. I expect it will just output PGNs necessary for managing the protocol or for configuring other boxes. I have the full list of PGNs from the NMEA website. Do you have a list of which ones the i70 is supposed to output - I can't find it in the manual I have, unlike most bits of Raymarine kit I have.

By the way, although my i70 was able to identify the Shipmodul as the source of depth data it wouldn't configure it. I suspect the configuration PGNs are effectively proprietarised - i.e technically meet the standard but only understood by Raymarine kit. I've worked on protocol standards in my day job (non-marine) and PGN126208 is a classic for easy 'proprietarisation'.
Click to expand...

In the manual it has a load of pgns that it can transmit as well as receive..... (not copied well but the ones that have two dots are receive and transmit.

AppendixASupportedNMEA2000PGNlistPGNDescriptionReceivedTransmit-ted59392ISOAcknowledgment●●59904ISORequest●60928ISOAddressClaim●●126208NMEA-Requestgroupfunction●●126464PGNList–Receive/TransmitPGN’sGroupfunction●●126992SystemTime●●126996ProductInformation●●127237Heading/TrackControl●127245Rudder●●127250VesselHeading●●127251RateofTurn●●127257Attitude●127258MagneticVariation●●127488EngineParameters,RapidUpdate●127489EngineParameters,Dynamic●127493TransmissionParameters,Dynamic●127496TripParameters,Vessel●127497TripParameters,Engine●127498EngineParameters,Static●127505FluidLevel●127508BatteryStatus●128259Speed●●128267WaterDepth(belowtransducer)●●128275DistanceLog●●129025Position,RapidUpdate●●129026COG&SOG,RapidUpdate●●129029GNSSPositionData●●129033Time&Date●●129038AISClassAPositionReport●PGNDescriptionReceivedTransmit-ted129039AISClassBPositionReport●129040AISClassBExtendedPositionReport●129041AISAidstoNavigation●129044Datum●●129283CrossTrackError●●129284NavigationData●●129291Set&Drift,RapidUpdate●129801AISAddressedSafetyRelatedMessage●129802AISSafetyRelatedBroadcastMessage●129809AISClassBCSStaticDataReportPtA●129810AISClassBCSStaticDataReportPtB●130306WindData●●130310EnvironmentalParameters●●130311EnvironmentalParameters●●130576SmallCraftStatus●130577DirectionData●
 
lpdsn said:
I've seen no evidence that the i70 outputs depth in a PGN. I expect it will just output PGNs necessary for managing the protocol or for configuring other boxes. I have the full list of PGNs from the NMEA website. Do you have a list of which ones the i70 is supposed to output - I can't find it in the manual I have, unlike most bits of Raymarine kit I have.

By the way, although my i70 was able to identify the Shipmodul as the source of depth data it wouldn't configure it. I suspect the configuration PGNs are effectively proprietarised - i.e technically meet the standard but only understood by Raymarine kit. I've worked on protocol standards in my day job (non-marine) and PGN126208 is a classic for easy 'proprietarisation'.
Click to expand...

Hmmmm. That is bad news. I thought the display would take the date, apply a correction and transmit again. Ie do the calibrating at the display not the sensor.

This is really driving me bonkers. What's the point of having a standard if you have to buy all of one manufacturers equipment!

So plan b isn't looking good either. Maybe back to a whole new system!

All I want is to know how it is going to work before I buy it. Surely not too much to ask!!
 
This is the depth PGN.

128267 Water Depth
Field # Field Description
Water depth relative to the transducer and offset of the measuring transducer. Positive offset numbers provide the distance from
the transducer to the waterline.
1 SID
2 Water Depth, Transducer
3 Offset
4 Reserved Bits

Includes the offset.

It would be interesting to understand under what circumstances the i70 transmits 128267. If you imagine a scenario with say three i70s in a network it's clear that it can't just echo back the received data with the offset added. Otherwise there would be 128267 PGNs flying about everywhere.

I have an i70. I feed 128267 to it from the Shipmodul Miniplex generated from the DBT sentence on the Stowe dataline. I can also capture every PGN on the N2K bus using the ShipModul. Obviously not decoded, but you can identify the PGN number in Hex, and there is no 128267 coming back from the i70.

I've also tried to configure the offset in the i70. It can recognise the ShipModul box as the source of depth, but you can't configure it. Which makes me believe that configuration PGNs are sent to the transducers it recognises to configure the offset.
 
lpdsn said:
This is the depth PGN.

128267 Water Depth
Field # Field Description
Water depth relative to the transducer and offset of the measuring transducer. Positive offset numbers provide the distance from
the transducer to the waterline.
1 SID
2 Water Depth, Transducer
3 Offset
4 Reserved Bits

Includes the offset.

It would be interesting to understand under what circumstances the i70 transmits 128267. If you imagine a scenario with say three i70s in a network it's clear that it can't just echo back the received data with the offset added. Otherwise there would be 128267 PGNs flying about everywhere.

I have an i70. I feed 128267 to it from the Shipmodul Miniplex generated from the DBT sentence on the Stowe dataline. I can also capture every PGN on the N2K bus using the ShipModul. Obviously not decoded, but you can identify the PGN number in Hex, and there is no 128267 coming back from the i70.

I've also tried to configure the offset in the i70. It can recognise the ShipModul box as the source of depth, but you can't configure it. Which makes me believe that configuration PGNs are sent to the transducers it recognises to configure the offset.
Click to expand...

Fantastic information thanks. Especially as you have exactly the same kit as me.

I have a sneaky feeling that the i70s will only calibrate the ITC-5 or smart sensors.

I didn't really understand what I was getting in to when I started this.........

I thought you could have 2 sets of PGNs as there is an instance number for each device? Im not saying that it is doing it. Just that it is possible.

I wonder if it is possible with any display to calibrate stuff from an nmea0183 network through a shipmodul. Ie either just on that display or rebroadcasting corrected pgns.

I may go back to plan A and replace the sensors.

I will try calling Raymarine again. The last guy I spoke to didn't really get what I was going on about.......
 
So I just called Raymarine again.

They don't really like my pedantic questions...................

However I think the I70s will only calibrate their own stuff. And by calibrate I mean update the sensors with the calibration. There is no function to set an offset in the display from 3rd party information. This confirms what ipdsn has already said he has tried.

What all the manufacturers should be making clear is that there is no point buying sensors separate from at least on display from the same vendor. That is if you want to be able to calibrate the sensor (ie in the sensor)

So my summary is:

Garmin: Need sensors and display. Will store calibrations in sensors. Corrected data on bus.
B&G: Need sensors and display. Will store wind calibration in sensor. Will store speed calibration in display. So a mix of corrected and uncorrected data on bus.
Raymarine: Need sensors and display. Will store calibrations in ITC-5. Corrected data on bus.

I have no idea if the 3 statements above are correct or not! However this is from asking tech support at each company and it is what they have told me! I sort of don't believe that Garmin store the speed setting in the DST800 and B&G don't? That seems weird.

Raymarine may be the safest bet after all this is the sensors are analogue (in the pack) and the calibrations are all apparently held in the ITC-5?!

Clear as mud.....................
 
lpdsn said:
This is the depth PGN.

128267 Water Depth
Field # Field Description
Water depth relative to the transducer and offset of the measuring transducer. Positive offset numbers provide the distance from
the transducer to the waterline.
1 SID
2 Water Depth, Transducer
3 Offset
4 Reserved Bits

Includes the offset.

It would be interesting to understand under what circumstances the i70 transmits 128267. If you imagine a scenario with say three i70s in a network it's clear that it can't just echo back the received data with the offset added. Otherwise there would be 128267 PGNs flying about everywhere.

I have an i70. I feed 128267 to it from the Shipmodul Miniplex generated from the DBT sentence on the Stowe dataline. I can also capture every PGN on the N2K bus using the ShipModul. Obviously not decoded, but you can identify the PGN number in Hex, and there is no 128267 coming back from the i70.

I've also tried to configure the offset in the i70. It can recognise the ShipModul box as the source of depth, but you can't configure it. Which makes me believe that configuration PGNs are sent to the transducers it recognises to configure the offset.
Click to expand...

I asked the guy about it saying in the manual that the I70s transmits a load of PGNs. He waffled about it sending these PGNs to the ITC-5. Can this be right?! I would have thought the calibrations would be sent in a proprietary format. And as you say you haven't seen 2 values on the network. So this isn't clear at all!

I may wait until after the Southampton boat show and ask them all again.............................!! Cant put the new depth transducer in until the boat is out as it is bigger than the Stowe one.
 
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