Which boat next

R

Ratkins

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Hi guys

1st post but been reading for ages.
We have been boating for about 5 yrs now have a monterey275. We are looking to upgrade in the new year circa 15meters
We like idea of ips and thinking off looking at the Sessa c48 , we also like the v40’s etc
Question is at what age would the experience people say leave ips alone, or are sterndrives suitable for this size. And just to get everybody going can you get the same from shafts with bow/stern thrusters. We moor in Spain so stern too mooring and manoeuvrability is paramount

Any thoughts on boats and drives appreciated.
 
very brave of you starting a thread on boats with IPS etc.
just to get the bun fight rolling - it comes down to how many sea miles a year do you realistically expect to do and how much of your budget are you happy to spend on servicing or worst case major refurbishment costs.

I did a thread a while back and very rough rule of thumb
less than 500 miles a year shafts is the way to go
less than 1000 miles a year outdrives make good sense
more than 1000 miles a year ideally 2000+miles a year IPS makes sense

however shaft drives are really simple, anyone can fix them with half a brick, you will spend more on diesel but generally less on servicing.
get a boat with bow and stern thruster - stern to mooring really easy in the med (just bounce of the neighbours as you back in). Sounds nuts but you will also find mooring a 15m boat a lot easier than a 8 - 9 m boat.

At that size and @price I would look at Fairline Targa 47 GT as well
 
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Many thanks

At present I would say around 500 nm then as I get more time off 1000nm plus did day skipper on shafts and found it quite simple tbh, think bow/stern thrusters is a must for us with limited experience. We both love the 47gt also . Are the “side Shifter” thrusters worth having . Sure as our experience grows we will laugh at these questions it’s more getting sorted in our heads. Ips looks good but you only seem to hear horror story’s that’s the scary thing
 
With IPS you might like to budget in for prop seals to be replaced every 5 years as per the service manual.
Assuming that your average boat does 50 hours a year it would seem that after approx 250 hours VP doubt the integerity of the seals.
Not sure what a lift out and leg strip on an IPS is, but suspect its a tad more than a meter of shaft stern gland packing and half hour labour while boat is still afloat.

You might want to read this....... from the Cruisers forum)

"Much can go wrong with this system because the IPS system is basically a gearbox, much like an outdrive, that hangs below the water line and any leaks will immediately render the drives unusable, needing a complete rebuilt. Looking at the user manuals, that came with the boat, there is no mention of any specific maintenance recommendations for the IPS (other than oil changes and anodes replacements), no mention of how long the drive seals would last and when it they would need to be replaced.

Well, I learned that the hard way. My boat was purchased new in 2009 but was actually built in 2008. So by 2014 my drive seals were six years old. I keep my boat in the Caribbean and have always kept it in the water. I would haul it once a year for a bottom clean, paint and propspeed treatment. Well in 2014 I hauled the boat. Insurance companies love that solution, especially when your boat is located in a hurricane zone. I hauled my boat late May and launched it again early November. We did the usual complete service of the engines, as described in the manual. That included replacing the gear oil in the IPS and replacing the gear oil filters. The most important is to make sure to replace all the outside anodes protecting the IPS drives. The anodes are made of aluminum and there are two per drive plus two regular zincs for the boats other equipment protection. We also replaced the engine block anodes. Pretty standard stuff that was part of the recommended preventive maintenance as described in the Volvo operating manuals.

Excited about a new season in the Caribbean we took the boat out for a cruise. As always I check all oil levels and inspected the oil before any trip. When we arrived at our destination and before we were ready for the next leg of our trip I checked all the oil levels once again. This time I found the oil in all the IPS drives looking "milky" a sign of water getting into the gearbox. I decided to return home and haul the boat. After some pressure testing it appears we had a leak around the shaft seals (and possible also on the upper seals) on EACH of the three drives. And since we have evidence of water in the oil in ALL three propulsion units it’s clear that the seals on all units have failed ALL at once. Now how can that be?

We contacted Volvo for some guidance. That was the first sign of things to come. Volvo was completely unresponsive. I called them and emailed their customer solution center. NO response. Then I started talking to authorized Volvo technicians, guys with many years in the business. Well they basically told me that all the drive seals should be replaced every five years or you will have a complete failure. Now I understand why it’s not in the manual or why Volvo wouldn’t reply. This is pretty expensive and very intensive work. I would have been a hard sell to reveal this information up front before I bought the IPS drives.

Now comes the fun part. In order to completely rebuild these drives because as soon as oil gets in the drives they have to be completely disassembled and all gears cleaned, seals replaced, clutch packs replaced and everything realigned and pressure tested. Now only a certified Volvo technician can do the job and for this job there are dozens of specialized tools that only they have. These tools are extremely expensive and so are all the parts so needless to say this job cost a small fortune. To make matters worse they were no reliable Volvo technicians available in the Caribbean. I reside in BVI and the other IPS boats on the island gets maintained by Florida Volvo technicians which are hard to get and expensive to fly down. My technicians flew down from Annapolis where I live in the summer. They spent several weeks getting the drives rebuilt, re-aligned and tested. Of cause all the specialized tools and parts had to be flown down there and back. So at the end we were looking at a bill in excess of $30K to fix.

Looking at an average use of the boat of 100 hours a year (which is high) and saving maybe 20% in fuel there is just no way this technology can pay for itself and is worth it.

Volvo finally did get back to me because my dealer contacted them and told them too. They didn’t do a thing and were completely unwilling to even admit that these seals should be changed and at what frequency. I think the fact that I hauled the boat for six month may have made the situation worse (because of the heat). But even when asked if I could store the boat on land for six month in the Caribbean they just said they didn’t see why not.

My plan is to get rid of this boat and the technology. I want the old prop and shaft solution and with some help of a couple of thrusters and the new computerized joystick solutions I will have a far better and cheaper solution for the future. At least I can find someone to work on my boat without the need for expensive tools and training.

IPS is very cool solution, but it is an over-engineered solution to a pretty simple problem that has worked very well for many many years; prop and shaft.

.
 
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"Are the “side Shifter” thrusters worth having"
there's not much special about that particular brand. Any boat you will be looking at at more than 12m in length will almost certainly already have a built in bow thruster. Occasionally the original factory fit model might be a tad small but they can be upgraded if required. There are a variety of makes some with fancy proportional controls etc - however keeping it simple works well with boats. The only bad experience I have had with thrusters was some made by MaxPower on a Sealine - rubbish, props fell off, electronic control rotted away junk.

Stern thrusters are easy to fit if the boat of choice doesn't have one, (just bolt on the transom) but to be honest on a shaft drive boat you don't really need one - its a nice to have - handy if a bit blowy or crew getting tired. So if you pick a boat that doesn't have a stern thruster don't rush out buying one, see how you get on without for a while.
 
Are you buying in Europe or England ,and on the ips ,I think once you have been on one and see the space you get ,it will spoil you when you go on a boat on shafts ,so may be best make up your Mind which one then choose the boat. Ps the cessa is fantastic SS
 
@15 M and by the indication of a Sessa 48 in the Med from a 27 ft ,are you sorted for shoreside hard standing accommodation? So you are not looking for a floating apartment?

You have not told us much of how you plan to use the boat , which is very important for folks to give you a shortlist .
In the absence of any proposed usage requirements-

Few clues from post #1

1- You are nervous about Med mooring .
2- amenable / open minded to NOT follow the lemmings to a Brit yard .
3- a little naive about mechanical marine bits .

Happy to be corrected on the above .

Addressing each point.
1- A twin + bow thruster @ 15 m is all you need AND chuck in a few € for lessons / tuition * .

2- Think about the ride in a rough sea as you will go further in 15M .
This means the dead rise and seakeeping start to come into play or should dominate the buying decisions .If she ( presume female partner ) gets knocked about due to a flat tiny deadrise more likely found in a low powered albeit economic on fuel IPS boat , she won,t like it and it will hardly end up leaving the berth .
But at least there will be a huge mid cabin to sulk in .:)

3- I think OG above covered the mech side of IPS .Can’t add any more except experience which is what you are asking .
Of the three IPS boats on my jetty that’s happened to ALL three .
So 3 out of 3 last one a friend €20,000 to fix the gears in the pods after water intrusion 17/28 season it’s a 2009 Sunseeker .
Neighbours Sessa has had €10000 of hydraulic work 18 season just gone and basically a wrecked season .
New Azimut 43 hit a submerged object ( so they VP say ,he never felt anything) and Volvo despite in warranty cocked off the repairs .
3 months heart ache wrangling in the middle of summer a time short Guy holiday wise and kerchung €10000 repair .

Every body else on our 14/15 size jetty has shafts and zero issues its only the 3 IPS guys that have had down time and Kerchung - sorry the cost seems to have been in multiples of €10 k .

*even if you spend €1000 on tuition in year 1 that’s only 10 % of the smallest Kerchung of those 3 guys with IPS that know .


All 3 ,s USP in the buying decision was manoeuvrability.A disproportionate docking anxiety .

They are slow as well cruise 22 knots @3200 rpm and less in large waves .
Shaft drive stuff will cruise past you if you hammer the 5.5 L Volvo engines to near 3400 rpm to eek out 24/25 knots a sensible cruise speed they alarm off .

I know this from repeated attempts at cruising in company with them .

So picking up in point 2 - how about this as safer alternative from the Sessa ?

A proper HT quality engined boat .

http://mondialbroker.com//Barca.aspx?pk=8f6e2251-42ec-4a82-9887-1edd8afeb22b
 
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Guys

Thanks for the response.

Looking like a shaft drive is the best choice, we hope to go further afield as we get older, were in Costa Blanca so Majorca etc circa 100 nm.
If we do decide on shafts money saved will be put towards a bit of training as were used to single leg at the moment im sure we will get the hang of twins.
No it’s comes down to size,
We ideally want twin cabins/heads.
Again with a garage for a toy, so top speed not majorly important more comfort/range
Hope everyone has a great Christmas and new year.
 
Thanks for your thoughts

We are nervous with Med docking, however this could be because we only have a single prop at the moment.
With the larger hull we would be expecting to stay onboard more often at different ports, our home port is near our apartment so no issues there. Wife not bothered about chop of the sea
Mechanical stuff I can turn my hands to most things but ips is a no no. And reliability is a major factor for us.
 
What can I say. You think you’ve got it sorted then along come choices from experienced peeps. Lots of web surfing coming up. Keep it coming guys I will update when decision is made.
 
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