Which bilge keel cruiser would you recommend for us?

Scillypete said:
well if that is so then you must have extremely long legs to have even reached the rudder post, unusual in a wafu ;)

And there was me being convinced that you were confusing the Newbridge pioneer, which has an aft double where the rudder post goes through the berth, with the Hunter Horizon 27 where it definitely does not. http://www.newbridge-owners.org/downloads/Pioneer/Sailing-Today-Pioneer.pdf
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ScillyPete,

I am happy to say I've never sailed on a Newbridge boat though I have been alongside a few ! :)

As for the Horizon and rudder posts, maybe I test sailed a prototype ? It was I believe the first on the introduction of the revised design after the 26.

Andy
 
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Laurie said:
I believe Centaurs, Marcon (Sabre), Colvics (26/sailors etc) Jaguars, and Cobras have balsa cored deck/coachroofs with ply pads /backing pads in areas of high load or stress.
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I doubt very much if Centaurs Sabres & Colvic sailors had balsa cored decks because unless I am very much mistaken they were all brought out in the early seventies.I'm sure if I'm wrong some owners will correct me.
I don't know much about Jaguars and Cobras though I did consider Jaguars particularly the 25 when buying my current boat (a 27 was beyond my price range though a pretty attractive boat) but was put off by the horror stories I herd surrounding balsa cored decks.I know precious little about Cobras having been put off by their 'modernism'
:D
 
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Nicholas123 said:
I doubt very much if Centaurs Sabres & Colvic sailors had balsa cored decks because unless I am very much mistaken they were all brought out in the early seventies.I'm sure if I'm wrong some owners will correct me.
I don't know much about Jaguars and Cobras though I did consider Jaguars particularly the 25 when buying my current boat (a 27 was beyond my price range though a pretty attractive boat) but was put off by the horror stories I herd surrounding balsa cored decks.I know precious little about Cobras having been put off by their 'modernism'
:D
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Sorry...they just have....:D

No seriously, I didn't mean to sound so ascerbic, but I have been involved with some.... of these boats, and set up and ran the JOA for many years. Many manufacturers of the 70s and 80s used balsa coring as many still do.

Horror stories on core materials are like those with osmosis....
It is not so much the core but the support involved in high load areas such as chainplates and mast steps, where compression can occur. Under a mast with a kingpost is in itself not a problem, though many would have you believe otherwise, but if the grp cracks and water gets in then obviously the balsa will rot (as will any organic core) and delamination of the 3 cores will occur. There are various methods for mending this, depending on where, etc., but wont bore everyone to death with that here. The fact that there are so many 30 to 40 year old BALSA cores boats around , I think bears testimony to its inherent "ok" ness?
 
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Laurie said:
Sorry...they just have....:D

No seriously, I didn't mean to sound so ascerbic, but I have been involved with some.... of these boats, and set up and ran the JOA for many years. Many manufacturers of the 70s and 80s used balsa coring as many still do.

Horror stories on core materials are like those with osmosis....
It is not so much the core but the support involved in high load areas such as chainplates and mast steps, where compression can occur. Under a mast with a kingpost is in itself not a problem, though many would have you believe otherwise, but if the grp cracks and water gets in then obviously the balsa will rot (as will any organic core) and delamination of the 3 cores will occur. There are various methods for mending this, depending on where, etc., but wont bore everyone to death with that here. The fact that there are so many 30 to 40 year old BALSA cores boats around , I think bears testimony to its inherent "ok" ness?
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I am still very doubtful & will make some enquiries,at least with regard to Centaurs from someone who I know is an authority.Anyway,if that is the case then I am even more relieved that I chose a Macwester 27 because mine is solid fibreglass no nonsense & requires less maintenance.It is also the heaviest of all the opposition & that no doubt contributes to it's exceptional sea going performance.
Modern boats seem cheap & gimmicky to me & balsa coring the decks looks like another mass production method to save money.
 
Nicholas123 said:
I am still very doubtful & will make some enquiries,at least with regard to Centaurs from someone who I know is an authority.Anyway,if that is the case then I am even more relieved that I chose a Macwester 27 because mine is solid fibreglass no nonsense & requires less maintenance.It is also the heaviest of all the opposition & that no doubt contributes to it's exceptional sea going performance.
Modern boats seem cheap & gimmicky to me & balsa coring the decks looks like another mass production method to save money.
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It is amassing that as the time goes by, Macwesters are getting more and more credible in every way; (apart from going not too close to the wind, which even this is not such a bad thing).
 
Nicholas123 said:
Modern boats seem cheap & gimmicky to me & balsa coring the decks looks like another mass production method to save money.
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I don't think it's to save money, it is to get strength from the structure without the weight of solid material. It's a standard engineering technique and just unfortunate that in those days there weren't the modern alternatives to balsa. I do wonder how many problems originate from factory made holes and how many from holes drilled later on by owners. I suspect a lot will be the latter.
 
CAPTAIN FANTASTIC said:
It is amassing that as the time goes by, Macwesters are getting more and more credible in every way; (apart from going not too close to the wind, which even this is not such a bad thing).
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That is our thought too, at the moment we seem to be leaning towards the Macwester 27/28 possibly the Wight. We also like the Mirage 28 and the Colvic Countess 28 too so some comparison research needed and some viewings if we can find any nearby. However we still haven't discounted some of the others and intend to view some of those too, looks like we will be spending the next few weekends wandering around boatyards and marinas!
 
CreakyDecks said:
I don't think it's to save money, it is to get strength from the structure without the weight of solid material. It's a standard engineering technique and just unfortunate that in those days there weren't the modern alternatives to balsa. I do wonder how many problems originate from factory made holes and how many from holes drilled later on by owners. I suspect a lot will be the latter.
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Absolutely correct
 
On my Centaur (early 1971) the decks are cored, i recored the foredeck in sept 2010 and injected the sidedecks where rig loads had separated the structure. The coachroof isn't - thats solid glass (well on mine it is). I understand from chatting to several US owners who own some of the first boats (1969 vintage) that the decks are solid glass, i couldn't tell you when they swapped over to cored though.

An easy test to tell whether the decks are screwed is to have someone walk on them and you at deck level watch them, mine were pretty shot, kinda felt like a waterbed. I got a family member to walk around and i observed to check, a little movements to be expected but my foredeck literally moved over an inch so pretty shot. The other sign is listening to the decks for a squeaking noise when walking on them, this is a good sign the cores come away from the grp. This was how i found out my sidedecks were abit knackered.

Incidentally all the foredeck problems on mine stem from the bow roller bolt holes see pics in link below.

https://picasaweb.google.com/110182886418433827802/Deck1?authuser=0&feat=directlink

cheers roger

www.agentlemansyacht.com
 
Umm nuff said.I know box sections etc are standard engineering practice to add stiffness but in the case of balsa coring decks etc clearly after about twenty years this becomes a maintenance issue & like the stupid cheap (to me) practice of lining the inside with vynal backed foam it seems like a cheap & tacky way to do it.
I was brought up in the days when products were built to last & British Engineering prided itself on this concept & you could never get something too good.Nowadays with built in obsolescence it is a whole new ball game & unless you can afford to buy new every few years is mucking about in old boats to many of us viable?
I like the built to last concept based on tradition & in every way my Macwester seems to epitomize that.
 
Nicholas123 said:
Umm nuff said.I know box sections etc are standard engineering practice to add stiffness but in the case of balsa coring decks etc clearly after about twenty years this becomes a maintenance issue & like the stupid cheap (to me) practice of lining the inside with vynal backed foam it seems like a cheap & tacky way to do it.
I was brought up in the days when products were built to last & British Engineering prided itself on this concept & you could never get something too good.Nowadays with built in obsolescence it is a whole new ball game & unless you can afford to buy new every few years is mucking about in old boats to many of us viable?
I like the built to last concept based on tradition & in every way my Macwester seems to epitomize that.
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Isn't it more a case that there wasn't the current understanding of the technology of GRP and composite structures and they were built on the maxim when in doubt slap another layer on . In building construction I have infilled railway arches with lightweight metal stud partitions fixed with adhesive, 30+ years ago these would have been substantial brick/block walls with piers.

As a matter of interest. Where did we get on the bilge keeler recommendations? The thread's gone a bit scientific.
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Isn't post 67 relevant
 
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The whole balsa cored decks issue is relevant. It's something that I wasn't aware of, however I did notice a very flexible deck on a Colvic that we looked at prior to purchasing our Macwester Malin (maybe that was the problem with it's deck, maybe not; it certainly put us off). If I was the OP I'd want to know about this issue, to ensure that I avoided purchasing a boat that had the potential to become a liability.
 
There's nothing actually wrong with balsa cored decks per se; they make / made a good engineering solution and lower C Of G which all sailors want, but they do require careful maintainance with sealants around deck fittings and every 10 or so years having the fittings, hatches etc removed and reseated; seems a drag at the time but it's also an excuse to upgrade with new toys !
 
rogerball0 said:
On my Centaur (early 1971) the decks are cored, i recored the foredeck in sept 2010 and injected the sidedecks where rig loads had separated the structure. The coachroof isn't - thats solid glass (well on mine it is). I understand from chatting to several US owners who own some of the first boats (1969 vintage) that the decks are solid glass, i couldn't tell you when they swapped over to cored though.

An easy test to tell whether the decks are screwed is to have someone walk on them and you at deck level watch them, mine were pretty shot, kinda felt like a waterbed. I got a family member to walk around and i observed to check, a little movements to be expected but my foredeck literally moved over an inch so pretty shot. The other sign is listening to the decks for a squeaking noise when walking on them, this is a good sign the cores come away from the grp. This was how i found out my sidedecks were abit knackered.

Incidentally all the foredeck problems on mine stem from the bow roller bolt holes see pics in link below.

https://picasaweb.google.com/110182886418433827802/Deck1?authuser=0&feat=directlink

cheers roger

www.agentlemansyacht.com
Click to expand...

N 123 probably still won't believe anyone...........
 
rogerball0 said:
On my Centaur (early 1971) the decks are cored, i recored the foredeck in sept 2010 and injected the sidedecks where rig loads had separated the structure.
cheers roger
Click to expand...

What was the method/materials you used? I presume not balsa again?
 
Cheers Andy thanks mate. Dgadee i used 6mm marine ply (bs 1088) diced it (cut through half its thickness, 3mm) in 50mm x 50mm so the ply would conform to the rather complex shape. I say complex as the foredeck is convex from the front of the forecabin beam wise then as you go towards the bow roller the deck changes to concave in the fore & aft plane whilst still convex if that makes sense.

To bond i knocked up what i call a 'bog' mix which usually consisted of cabosil or wests 404 a hand full of milled fibre for a bit of grip all in wests epoxy then laid the ply in it then same again over the top then placed the grp skins on top and vac the whole lot down. I've yet to fit the anchor locker bulkhead internally yet the foredeck doesn't move one bit. The side decks i injected with 200ml medical syringes bought off ebay using a thin mix of wests and 404 additive (structural filler).

Apologies for thread wondering.

cheers rog

www.agentlemansyacht.com
 
Laurie said:
N 123 probably still won't believe anyone...........
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I do believe it after reading rogerball0's first hand account though I am surprised.I did'nt realize Centaur's were so dodgy!

I still have my doubts about Sabres & Colvic sailors,well at least Sabres after reading yodave's experience but my confidence in British Engineering is taking something of a knock.Fortunately my pride in Macwesters still stands proud :)
 
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