Which anchor?

Caladh said:
Just like to say that this anchor thread has been one of the most intersting I've read recently. The ROCNA seems to come out very well. I've been using a 35lb CQR since leaving the UK and now in Italy with one problem setting in weed in Majorca. I'm always intersted in sailors who trash the CQR and their reasons for having issues with it. However as advised above, it's nearly always down to technique and practice. Do it and you get better.......
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I agree, it's been a very interesting thread and much calmer than the norm for this subject.

I was interested in your comment about technique. I've changed my view on this after a few liveaboard years. Nowadays I don't want an anchor that requires technique for successful anchoring (even though we use technique of course). After a while I realised it doesn't matter how good my technique is if my anchor breaks free or won't re-set itself after a tide or wind change. Unfortunately my old CQR (copy) was not always so good in this situation as it does what it say on the tin.

I went for a Spade after reading lots of good reports and in the last 4 years it has set first time every time and either doesn't break free when the wind changes or re-sets itself successfully. Conversations with other liveaboards suggest that Rocna and Manson Supreme anchors do this as well and all three seem to do much better than the CQR, CQR copy and Bruce. In hard sand, just dropping the Spade and letting the bow blow off is usually enough - as the wind builds it just digs in more deeply.

We were one of only a few boats who didn't drag in 3 days of 30-40kts off Cabo da Gata even though we only had a 5:1 scope (space limitations in the anchorage). It got to the point that my nervousness shifted to worrying about the strength of my shackle or chain.

Last year we had a night of 60kts in the Sporades and we didn't budge. (It might have been more wind than that I don't know - the instrument has a max reading of 60).

I rate the Spade very highly but would look at the Rocna and Manson as well.

Cheers,

Bob
 
SeamanStaines said:
Did you replace the chain or was there a cunning way to extend it. I have 50mts and I would dearly like 80 but I am a little stressed about the cost of 80 mts new
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There are little joining links called C-links. be VERY careful if you go this route as most ones available in the chandleries are cast and not forged. You can tell if you bought a cast one because about 3 bashes of the hammer will close it. Forged is another matter - you have to bash repeatedly to close them.

I did this initially, then decided I would rather have a continuous chain, so that I could sleep ok. The new chain also runs very sweetly over the gypsy too.
 
bob234 said:
Nowadays I don't want an anchor that requires technique for successful anchoring (even though we use technique of course). After a while I realised it doesn't matter how good my technique is if my anchor breaks free or won't re-set itself after a tide or wind change.
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I´m with you 100% on that one.
 
I don’t understand that line of reasoning. Anchoring is a temporary form of mooring whatever the type you use.

When all the boats swing on the tide you don’t see those with old style anchors dragging off towards the rocks and those with new design anchors staying safe.

If your technique sets the old or modern anchor and the tide or wind breaks it out it resets because your technique remains in that you used the correct scope etc for that type of anchor.
 
mike_bryon said:
I don’t understand that line of reasoning.
......
If your technique sets the old or modern anchor and the tide or wind breaks it out it resets because your technique remains in that you used the correct scope etc for that type of anchor.
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But many contributors to anchor threads claim "technique" is in more than just scope - including such activity as motoring astern to ensure that the anchor buries properly. What bob234 correctly points out that the initial game plan is nullified when conditions - tide, wind, etc. change, as they can do at times when not noticed.

I personally have seen anchorages in chaos when a gale hits and all those anchors that previously were holding suddenly stop doing so. Very often, I agree, because of too many boats limiting the possible scope, but not all. Couldn't say which anchors they were though.
 
Another Rocna fan

I changed three years ago from a 35lb CQR to a Rocna 10 (similar blade area but two thirds the weight). I was concerned about changing to a lighter anchor. However, I used to drag once or twice per year with the CQR and have only dragged once (in heavy weed and the anchor immediately reset) with the Rocna.

I anchor some three nights in four throughout the year. I have anchored in
F9 and from the Med to Norway.
 
The initial game plan is not nullified when conditions change. Testing your anchor as part of your technique establishes that your anchor and scope is effective given the sea bed. When you are asleep and the tide/wind changes and the anchor breaks out then it will reset because you have established it is suitable for the position.

There is not such thing as the best anchor and there is no such thing as an anchor so good you can chuck it in and forget it. My fisherman on a few rare occasions is the best anchor I’ve got. On most occasions it is the worse. this is why we carry more than one design and know their limitations. No matter how good you believe your anchor is none are fallible.

yes we anchor too most people on this forum do.
 
SeamanStaines said:
Did you replace the chain or was there a cunning way to extend it. I have 50mts and I would dearly like 80 but I am a little stressed about the cost of 80 mts new
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We did extend it, and we're very well aware of the mixed comments on this forum and elsewhere.

We took Vyv's invaluable advice on the best source of c-links, as a result of his hefty testing of the same, and bought several (only used one). I can't this moment remember the source (a UK company) but if I recall or Vyv returns to this thread I'm sure we can advise!

The c-link then needs some brutal hammering - more than we could have managed and the yard did it. It is now very difficult to tell which link it is on a fast look.

Alternatively you could weld a link in - but you need to be sure of the welding quality, and you need to get your 50m of chain to the welder and your 80m back!
 
mike_bryon said:
The initial game plan is not nullified when conditions change. Testing your anchor as part of your technique establishes that your anchor and scope is effective given the sea bed. When you are asleep and the tide/wind changes and the anchor breaks out then it will reset because you have established it is suitable for the position.
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But I infer from some posters (not in this thread) that their 'technique' is not so much "testing" but rather invoking a procedure that helps to securely set the anchor. If this is so then they must not be able to sleep well when tide or wind changes and it breaks out and needs to reset.

I have a 15kg Rocna that, for the poster who asked about stowage, must be canted over for the deep shank to fit under the step-over dip in the pulpit as it rides in on the bow roller. In its first year of use it must have hit the s.s. tubing and the galvanisation was chipped off in two places - I started a thread on this subject once. Rocna agreed that I must have a bad product and that they would pay for re-galvanisation, which has just been completed.
 
Roaring Girl said:
We did extend it, and we're very well aware of the mixed comments on this forum and elsewhere.

We took Vyv's invaluable advice on the best source of c-links, as a result of his hefty testing of the same, and bought several (only used one). I can't this moment remember the source (a UK company) but if I recall or Vyv returns to this thread I'm sure we can advise!

The c-link then needs some brutal hammering - more than we could have managed and the yard did it. It is now very difficult to tell which link it is on a fast look.

Alternatively you could weld a link in - but you need to be sure of the welding quality, and you need to get your 50m of chain to the welder and your 80m back!
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The two recommended C-link manufacturers were Crosby and ACCO. The full testing report is on my website. It was then found that ACCO links supplied by West Marine were in fact some of the less strong types made in China, due to collapse of the ACCO parent company. However, ACCO has now been bought by Peerless, another USA company. They show C-links in their catalogue here, see page 63. The working load of 1900 lbs quoted for their 5/16" links is the same as the equivalent grade 30 chain and higher than the same size shackle. So it appears that the ACCO C-link may now be back to the same standard as the ones I tested.
 
mike_bryon said:
The initial game plan is not nullified when conditions change. Testing your anchor as part of your technique establishes that your anchor and scope is effective given the sea bed. When you are asleep and the tide/wind changes and the anchor breaks out then it will reset because you have established it is suitable for the position.

There is not such thing as the best anchor and there is no such thing as an anchor so good you can chuck it in and forget it. My fisherman on a few rare occasions is the best anchor I’ve got. On most occasions it is the worse. this is why we carry more than one design and know their limitations. No matter how good you believe your anchor is none are fallible.

yes we anchor too most people on this forum do.
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Hi Mike,

Sorry for late response - been out of the loop for a while.

Barnac1e hit it on the head - it is what I wanted to say. The post I responded to spoke about people criticising CQR's for problems which were felt could be overcome with practice and technique. By that I take him to mean 'setting' technique rather than length of anchor rode.

That view is one I held for 30 years but I found my CQR copy would not always hold after a tide or wind change and I couldn't get it to set at all on some sea beds.

A German friend swears by his technique of revving his engine to 2500 rpm to dig in his Bugel anchor. If it won't hold during that then he won't rely on it in the anchorage. Unfortunately on very hard sand this didn't work because reversing with high revs or at high speed just made his anchor skip along the sea bed and he was the only guy in the bay who ended up picking up a mooring.

In those conditions we found that just laying out the anchor (with adequate scope of course) and letting it slowly dig itself in over half an hour using the 30 knots of wind at our disposal worked. I suppose that in itself is a technique but, as I say, I find it attractive because I feel it increases the chances of it looking after itself when I am away.

A similar situation occured on a sea bed of very light sand off Astipalia in the Aegean. It was almost like talcum powder when disturbed and trying to dig in the anchor by engine just didn't work. Again chucking it with adequate scope and leaving it to it's own devices did the trick. Half an hour later a test under engine showed it had dug in under repeated gentle tugs caused by the boat at anchor.

So, what I like about the modern anchors is that some are designed to dig in progressively as wind increases and when left to their own devices whilst my experience of the copy CQR is that it often required technique and was vulnerable to breaking free when veered.

I know you feel there is no such thing as an anchor so good you can chuck it in and forget it and you are probably right. But so far I seem to have been able to do precisely that but obviously I have not anchored on all of the worlds sea beds!

On a separate note, I hope you are enjoying life in the Caribbean. I wonder if your experiences are similar to those I tried to desribe to you when you were asking about going out there.

Cheers,

Bob
 
Bob no offence intended. My posts are directed to the thread in general and the often heard sentiment that technique does not help if the anchor resets when it seems obvious to me that it can and should. I prefer to row out a second anchor if I have any doubts about the holding or fear the anchor will not reset itself.

Fair winds

Mike
 
thanks for all the feedback. I have been out of the loop for a while and just got back in.

OK so what I plan to do is buy an additional 60m of 10.5mm chain to put on my delta as a main anchor and use the existing 30meters of 10.5mm chain and 30meters of rope as a second/kedge anchor. Does that sound reasonable or is all that chain going to make the kedge unmanageable?
 
KellysEye said:
>It concerns me that you EXPECT to have to re-anchor several times before you get a proper set.

He didn't say that he said "we always choose our anchoring spots very carefully, sometimes dropping, lifting and re-setting the anchor a few times before we are finally satisfied."

Which is a sensible procedure that we also follow. I sometimed think that CQR knockers simply don't know how to use one and thus have bad experiences. I remember somebody on a forum who was knocking them saying they'd seen dozens of CQR's lying on their sides. Which rather proves my point - CQR's are plough anchors and need to be dragged.
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Have to agree -used not to drag ours in properly and had a few problems, now we always drag in in hard and never have any problems whatsover. 42lb CQR all chain on 42 yacht has held for 3 days solid in bay in Serifos in never less than 40 knots and didn`t moved an inch. Its not the CQR that is a problem its the way you set `em.
 
Spade v Rocna

What a fascinating and informative thread!

We have a 20Kg Spade on 50M chain on a 9 ton yacht. In UK and Western Med we had 100% success. The anchor set every time, never dragged and reset if the wind or tide changed.
Last year in Greece, it was pretty good. Once set it always stayed set - but we have some real difficulty in Posidonia weed. We had trouble in north Corfu and later in Sivota on Levkas we were unable to get it to set in the weed (we always reverse at 2000RPM to test once we think the anchor is in and every time it dragged). We had to leave. We also failed to set in some small bays south of Fiscardo with heavy weed on the bottom and finally tied up to an old iron gantry.
While there, we watched an Austrian come in with a Bugel. He dropped it and then over the next half hour gave it gentle but increasing nudges astern. His anchor set.
We have tried that technique ourselves since then but it doesn't work with our Spade and we always have to go and spot a patch of sand. If there isn't one, we go somewhere else.

I've been wondering if we should replace our Spade with a Bugel or a Rocna in hope that they will perform better in weed - but the cost is pretty large on our limited budget for an experiment that may fail.

Does anyone have any experience of comparing these anchors in weed?
 
daveg45 said:
thanks for all the feedback. I have been out of the loop for a while and just got back in.

OK so what I plan to do is buy an additional 60m of 10.5mm chain to put on my delta as a main anchor and use the existing 30meters of 10.5mm chain and 30meters of rope as a second/kedge anchor. Does that sound reasonable or is all that chain going to make the kedge unmanageable?
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Yes. 30 metres of 10 mm chain on a kedge will make it virtually impossible to row out in the dinghy. When you begin to lower the chain from the dinghy to the bottom you will be unable to pull against the weight and all the chain will be in a pile on the bottom, with the anchor on top of it. I have 7 metres of 8 mm chain and the remainder Anchorplait. Even 7 metres is considered too much by some authorities.
 
Sorry another late comer. We used a Delta for two years in the Caribbean and never dragged once even in some horrible weather. Only time we had problems setting was in soft mud, and there the technique is to leave it for 5 minutes or so to sink in and then back up on it slowly. Getting it up can then be interesting and dirty. Strongly agree about not using the nylon for mormal use, we had 60m of chain and that was all we ever needed although we had another 80m of nylon spliced onto it for emergencies.
 
im just reading through this and wondering how on earth anyone can manage 60 meters of chain and several kilos of anchor up in the anchor chain locker.

you must all have way bigger boats than me.

I wouldnt want all that weight up front, much happier with twice the length of the boat in chain.. plus loads of warp to take up the snatch. 60 meters of chain is the equivalent of 3 fat blokes sitting on the bow roller. I'd never winch that up even on a calm day...

am I too frugal then? Ive never worried about my anchor pulling out, but then i generally only day sail or anchor infrequently.
my kedge anchor is frugal too with chain but plenty of warp again.
 
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