Which 35-38' AWB?

[Ubergeekian]

Boat needs to modern 2 cabin layout, big enough for four adults and 1 kid or 2 adults and 3 kids.

Victoria 34? Just about within your price range, though another 10k would be better. True, it's only 34 feet, but since it's not wasting two or three feet on a sugar scoop stern or sloping-the-wrong-way transom it's probably effectively as long as many 36 footers. Double aft, vee at the pointy end, two in the saloon.

 

[ff_nick]

So they're all against the little tits thing?

You bet, only big tits allowed onboard

 

[ff_nick]

Hi there

When we first looked we had a similar set of requirements to you and looked at several boats around the 37' mark. However we ended up with a slightly smaller boat - a jenneau 34.2 (mentioned above) initially as a stopgap. These (and the rarer 36.2) seem to be built reasonably well and we have found it to be an ideal size for 4 cruising or another if you drop the saloon table. 10m is also a manageable size to single hand if you wish.

The point is you would then expect to get an even younger boat. 50-60k should get you a 2000 - 2002 model with all the bits and the taller mast.

Instead of trading up we have spent some money on a folding prop and a spinniker to improve her speed. However she was designed just before some of the really wide bottomed boats and sails quite well. The Byron handicap page gives her a PN of 947 which is ok for a cruiser of this size - http://www.byronsoftware.org.uk/bycn/byboat.htm - (check out other contenders here also)

Thanks, that's the 3rd or 4th recommendation for the Jenneau 36, I'll take a look

 

[flaming]

Sorry but I think you are wrong in suggesting one of these boats, they are more than likely going to be hammered, I mean how old is a Sigma 38 going to be, how many hard races? Same with a X362, and as for Sunsail fleet boats, chartered, raced, sail school. Would like be buying an ex hire car from 'rent-a-wreck'.

There are still enough good fast cruisers around to look at.

I think you're wrong to automatically write off boats that have been raced. Very often they are maintained to a far higher standard than cruising boats, at least from a deck hardware point of view, and racers discovered the joys of dehumidifiers long before cruisers did.
And on many examples the interior will have been hardly used. Whoever ends up buying the boat I race on when we're done with it will probably want to remove the plastic covering from the oven before using it!

Of course this is not universal, but that's what a survey is for.

The OP's racing background should leave him well able to handle any of the boats I suggested.

 

[Sans Bateau]

Many thanks for your input so far.

We saw an Etap 35i which belongs to a colleague of my BIL on New years day. Everybody liked the purposeful styling, it looked like it should sail properly, was decently screwed together and we agreed that the accommodation was adequate at least. Should be able to sail it, but not until spring.

We did what Tranona suggested and searched Yacht World, skipped the Bavs, scratched our heads over the Beneteaus then got bored and moved on to the Dehlers. Sister, SWMBO and me all very impressed with various 37 and 38 footers. Liked the shape, the interiors, the deck gear. We figured out the cws models are the ones with a winch in the middle of the cockpit. Lots of those for sale. Does it work? Or is it just a gimmick? Anybody any suggestions for which specific models to look at and which to avoid.?
Haven't got to Dufour or Jenny yet (alphabetical list, a long one!), but will do so at the weekend.

I should perhaps have mentioned that 3 of us (me, my sister and my father) have raced regularly, so a performance orientated boat would be nice, though not essential.

I know what you mean about the 35i! We have looked at other boats at SIBS and finished up realising that our 35i is better or as good as anything. It has many features boats old and new just dont have.

If you feel the accommodation is sufficient, then you will not be disappointed with the performance. Where does your friend keep his 35i? As far as I know there are very few in the UK. Only 52 were ever built.

If you are interested, I can do you a sail before the spring, we stay in the water all year.

 

[Robin]

I'm joining in late here but going back to first principles and the budget of up to £75,000 including an allowance of up to £10,000 for new kit etc, plus a willingness to consider anything from late 1980's to mid-1990s. The OP also would like, but not essential, a bit of performance.

This sounds remarkedly similar to our thoughts when we were boat hunting last time round and moving up from a W33 Ketch, although in our case there were just two of us to house.

First thing is that basic performance as in passage speeds comes from length, LWL in fact as hull speed is 1.34 x SqRt LWL. However good the boat is upwind or down, the average passage speed will be controlled by hull speed and therefore size of boat. We used to passage plan the W33 at 6kts and with determination and good sails managed to do that under sail a lot of the time, just not in light winds.

We soon realised that boats at 36-38ft whilst being a bit roomier and a bit quicker were a whole lot more expensive, so you got just a little for a lottle. We decided we had a goal, improve passage planning speeds from 6kts to 6.5kts average and to be able to do that over a wider range of windspeeds, ie in lighter winds than the W33 would need to keep 6kts. Only one way to go now and that is UP! So we looked at boats up to 41ft, starting with Westerly Oceanlords, Moodys and the like as well as more expensive Halberg Rassys and the like if we upped our budget even more. We looked for 18 months and saw a lot of boats that seriously underimpressed!

We were 'lucky' enough early on to look at a Westerly Oceanlord that had it's teak decks replaced at a cost of £25,000!!!!! Very nice but didn't like other bits of the boat like in-mast reefing, and lack of integrated or working electronics. The warning about what teak decks can cost was fortunate because we saw many more the brokers said just needed a bit of TLC. That alone eliminated several more Oceanlords and a Sadler Starlight 39. We also looked at a couple of home build Rival 41s, one of which could have appeared on TV as a DIY disaster, let alone the teak decks bit. I had sailed a few Sigma 41s and they were a possibility, but never saw a 'good' one.

Then friends, foolishly I first thought, bought a 1985 Jeanneau Sun Fizz 40 and we were very impressed, nice layout, very nice nick, sailed very well and was half the price we had been looking at paying. That caused us to look at Jeanneaus and we especially liked their then fashion of getting in the big name designers to create performance boats, campaigning them in races even transats and then turning them into long running series production fast cruisers. The Sun Fizz was raced in the OSTAR transat, the Sun Legende 41 (which was what we bought) was a Doug Peterson designed at One Ton Cup level, won SORC down under and was a French Admirals Cup Team member. That Sun Legende was a very fast, very sweet sailer, went in light conditions and didn't mind the rough stuff either. It was an absolute delight to sail, always finger tip light on the wheel yet kept on track if you let it go. 7kts at 28 degs to apparent wind upwind was unbelievable after the W33. Ours was a bit special and had been modded below to reduce the number of berths and set it up for long distance cruising just two up. We sold her last month to a French guy who took her off with ice on the decks on his first sail 110mls to Le Havre, all in the dark, F5-7 and several hours of that above 35kts, all sailed at an overall average 7.25kts. THAT says it pretty well. BTW we had her 8 years, 15,000 miles and sold for what we paid, although a few additional pennies went in between, 'twas ever thus.

Is a 41 footer too big since you questioned a Sigma 41? I don't see why. Sure the running costs are higher than a 38 but not hugely so and the space and pace will amaze by comparison with the Berwick.

So first thing is to define what you expect from your extra spend. In our case passage speed and comfort was key, for others it might be an island bed. Then search the Yacht World listings etc with your price range entered and see what turns up but dont ignore the Jennys and Bennies even the Bavs. Newer smaller or bigger older? Your choice!

 

[fireball]

Didn't mean to start a Anglo-franco-bavarian war here. I've only ever sailed one Bav, a fortnights charter out of Odensee. That was 1998, so the boat would have been a few years older. 39 footer I think, and yes the sails were ****.

Bavs just don't check the feel-good box for me. Bit like meeting a fat woman with little tits - I don't care how capable she is, if she's got a Phd in astrophysics and her Yachtmaster ocean, I still don't want her. What's more I am sure SWMBO feels the same and I think my sister and father do too. Snobbery, pride call it what you like.

That's ok - just checking you weren't writing off the whole brand due to 1 instance of **** sails - but if you race then you'd know what a difference good sails will make - so it is down to the boat ...

I don't know what the Jeanneau Sun Oddysey 35 is like for sailing - but our Jen SO30 was a cracker ... the SO35 was another mark we were looking at and is within your budget

 

[Skylark]

A vote for Beneteau!

Nick,

I have a 2001 Oceanis 361. It was very lightly used by it's first owner and I confess to being an anorak so it's spotless down below. I've had it for 4 seasons and it still brings a huge smile to my face each time I open up the washboards

On the face of it, it ticks all of your boxes.

It's by no means slow, albeit I'm not a racer, very comfortable, extremely well appointed (value for money, let's not get into snob territory) and will take a reasonable blow from the Irish Sea.

Worth a look for you to form your own opinion.

 

[trevorr]

These may be slightly biased but they give an understanding of what the Typhoon is about compared to the other Westerlys.
http://www.westerly-owners.co.uk/guides_11.htm
http://www.westerly-owners.co.uk/guides_20.htm

Me...I just own one.
Solid in a blow, yet fast and responsive.

 

[jwilson]

I don't know what the Jeanneau Sun Oddysey 35 is like for sailing - but our Jen SO30 was a cracker ... the SO35 was another mark we were looking at and is within your budget[/QUOTE]

We have one, deep fin, single aft cabin version. Reasonably well built, a few irritating design and construction points but none critical. Main stowage lockers ill-designed, annoying inaccessible bilge area under heads floor (but a really good heads/shower), silly moulded scupper drains under alloy toerail that block easily. Layout a good compromise between sailing and living aboard.

As for sailing: a very nice boat indeed in the sort of weather I like to go sailing in, fast, tolerably close-winded, handles easily.

In flat water you can hold full sail up to about 18 knots, but in any sea at all the first reef in the main goes in somewhere around 12 knots true, and as long as you keep reefing and sail her flat no problems on up to about 35 knots true in a fairly lumpy sea to windward (off Start Point). At that point I was thinking of getting out the storm jib and rigging the (non standard) inner forestay, but it was a lot of hassle and we were only an hour or so out of shelter.
This was of course sailing to a timetable, two up, or I'd have been somewhere else.

If you over-canvas her she fights you, tries to round up, etc. etc... exactly what every other modern light broad-sterned single-rudder boat does.

I came to the SO35 from a heavy long-keeler, a bit of a slug in light airs but briliant in a blow. I prefer the SO35 99% of the time.

Someone took one across the pond in a recent ARC, but I would not: it's not what the boat is designed for. However as a family cruiser she works very well. Ours gets chartered about ten weeks a year and has stood up fairly well on the whole to the occasional abuse: at five years old she will look like a private boat and not a battered charter boat when she goes back in at the end of March.

 

[cmedsailor]

Another vote for Beneteau Oceanis 361.
Two or three cabins available, deep or shallow keels available (recommend the deep one), lots of room everywhere, quite fast (hull borrowed from Beneteau First 35S7), probably best heads of this size category, comfortable cockpit.....

 

[Twister_Ken]

"Solid in a blow, yet fast and responsive."

Most of us are, dear boy.

 

[Grumpybear]

Hear hear. SO36.2 would do very well.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Just a word on the SO36.2. Had one Sunsailing once. A meltemi blew up. Wanted to get to shelter to windward. Boat wouldn't make much ground to windward (Sunsail sails and roller furling genny to blame). Motorsailed but the engine kept overheating and had to be throttled back. Reason; the cooling water intake was very shallow, and was sucking in as much air as water. The fault may have been corrected in later models - this was an early one.

 

[kingfisher]

1992 Etap 35i for sale here:
http://www.botenbank.nl/boot/123650/etap-35i

67K euro

 

[Cerddinen]

Just a word on the SO36.2. Had one Sunsailing once. A meltemi blew up. Wanted to get to shelter to windward. Boat wouldn't make much ground to windward (Sunsail sails and roller furling genny to blame). Motorsailed but the engine kept overheating and had to be throttled back. Reason; the cooling water intake was very shallow, and was sucking in as much air as water. The fault may have been corrected in later models - this was an early one.

I have never suffered that problem but I will look at the location of the intake when I go down to the boat tomorrow. Useful to be aware of.

 

[Bodach na mara]

Like the O.P. we have considered moving on from our Westerly Renown (same basic hull as the Berwick.) Lots of boats sound attractive in the brokers blurb but we have often been disgusted by the presentation, especially when we look at the price. Now I know that a bit of cleaning required may allow us to get a boat for less than if it were clean to start with but on some you wonder if you will ever get rid of the smells and signs of neglect and decay.

We did see one boat last year that impressed however. It was a Hanse 341 and was immaculate and priced at just under £60k. Only three things stopped us putting in an offer.
1. We had (indeed have) not yet sold our current boat, and it needs a bit of work on some areas to get it to a condition in which I would put it on sale.
2. I do not like saildrives.
3. A valuation of the nineteen canteen PEPs revealed what "recession" means!

 

[ff_nick]

Feedback

Thanks again to those who posted and the two who pm'd re: Jens, your input was most helpful. After a long sunday surfing brokerage sites we now have a shortlist:

Bene 361
Jenneau 362 & SO35
Etap 35i & 38i (going to be difficult finding one in the UK, though)
Dehler 35, 36, 37 & 38 nova
Possibly larger, older Jenny 40 footer, as Robin suggested.

Not sure about the Dufour classics yet. Non of us can really recall having seen one or been aboard. They look a bit fat!

We spent a while admiring a couple of Nic 40 ACs for sale and musing over (arguing about) the relative merits of AWBs vs classic old tubs and came to the conclusion that it definitely has to be a AWB.

Would still appreciate some feedback on the Dehler CWS system, as most of the boats for sale seem to have this.

I'll post an update when we've got the boat - has to happen soon, the Berwick is sold and sister wants to be on the water by Easter.

Nick.

 

[ff_nick]

Down side of AWBs......




I am going to have to learn to spell Jeanneau
Plural: Jeaneaux?

 

[Twister_Ken]

And learn to pronounce it. For decades I have been calling it 'Jenno', but looking at the spelling, Jeanne (as, for example, in Jeanne Moreau) is pronounced rather like John in English. So they are Johnnos.

Jeanne Moreau in a nautical mood.