Where's northwood weatherfax gone?

[GHA]

This came up on another forum, and despite being far far away with the wonderful SDR radio prog hamburg weatherfax is coming through loud and clear around Europe but northwood seems silent?

Where's it gone?

Will be very missed if gone forever..

 

[FWB]

I don't understand your post. Are you looking for surface charts?
Northwood stopped a while ago but the charts are here
http://www.weathercharts.org/ukmomslp.htm#t0
From here
http://www.weathercharts.org

 

[franksingleton]

I do not know the answer but that will not stop me from responding! Northwood broadcasts for RN and NATO naval purposes. It is not a part of the GMDSS and can be temporality stopped or ceased altogether without notice or reference to the needs of mariners in general. DWD provides the GMDSS service.

UK charts are in thumbnail at http://weather.mailasail.com/Franks-Weather/Weather-Charts-On-The-Internet, as a large file at http://weather.mailasail.com/Franks-Weather/Latest-Uk-Forecast-Charts-5-Days and a smaller file at http://weather.mailasail.com/Franks-Weather/Latest-Uk-Forecast-Charts-5-Days-Reduced-Size.

As a sailor, I have to say that I find GRIB files, eg zyGrib, more useful in conjunction with texts from the Met Office, Météo France etc

 

[GHA]

I don't understand your post. Are you looking for surface charts?
Northwood stopped a while ago but the charts are here
http://www.weathercharts.org/ukmomslp.htm#t0
From here
http://www.weathercharts.org

I wasn't aware that northwood had stopped broadcasting on HF.

Bracknell stopped a while ago but I'm sure I had something on some of the Northwood frequencies not so long ago.
2618.5 (2616.6) kHz*
4610 (4608.1) kHz
8040 (8038.1) kHz
11086.5 (11084.6) kHz
18261 (18259.1) kHz*

To be clear, these are weatherfax transmissions on HF radio, or were until recently by the looks of it.

If so, it's just Hamburg now for anyone crossing the atlantic after Boston fades out.

 

[GHA]

I do not know the answer but that will not stop me from responding! Northwood broadcasts for RN and NATO naval purposes. It is not a part of the GMDSS and can be temporality stopped or ceased altogether without notice or reference to the needs of mariners in general. DWD provides the GMDSS service.

Came up here...

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/ssb-uk-weather-fax-frequencies-155899.html

As a sailor, I have to say that I find GRIB files, eg zyGrib, more useful in conjunction with texts from the Met Office, Météo France etc

Close to a continent same here, and midocean both is nice, but if it was a choice between wfax & gribs way offshore then wfax wins IMHO, easier to see the big picture & what lows are developing far away.

 

[oldvarnish]

Came up here...

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/ssb-uk-weather-fax-frequencies-155899.html




Close to a continent same here, and midocean both is nice, but if it was a choice between wfax & gribs way offshore then wfax wins IMHO, easier to see the big picture & what lows are developing far away.

very much agreed. Also worth noting that fax charts are created with human intervention, GRIBs are raw computer output.

 

[franksingleton]

Came up here...

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/ssb-uk-weather-fax-frequencies-155899.html




Close to a continent same here, and midocean both is nice, but if it was a choice between wfax & gribs way offshore then wfax wins IMHO, easier to see the big picture & what lows are developing far away.

Bracknell ceased so long ago that I have now removed my page talking about and bemoaning the fact. I do not now use Radiofax or RTT so I have not been able to monitor Northwood. I have been in conversation with a Dutch sailor who sent me copies of broadcasts this last June.

I have no idea whether this is a cessation or a temporary outage. I must say that I have long been surprised that Northwood was continuing at all in these days of satellite communications and Internet contact. If RN and NATO navies are willing to move into the 2ist (even the 20th) century, then there is no reason for them to continue with 1950s technology. DWD is charged with (or, has agreed to) providing synoptic charts for GMDSS purposes.

It might be worthwhile checking William Hepburn’s monitoring. You should find the latest information on schedules at http://www.nws.noaa.gov/os/marine/rfax.pdf. A brief version is at http://info.yachtcom.co.uk/Weather/.

Oldvarnish is correct. Yes synoptic charts have human input which is why I always advocate keeping a close eye on GMDSS texts for the next 36 or so hours ahead. When it comes to more than 48 hours or so ahead, I have serious doubts whether the human can really add much to computer models. The confidence in these is evidenced by the Met Office and Met Eireann agreeing to name severe storms.

My page at http://weather.mailasail.com/Franks-Weather/Gmdss-What-Is-The-Future is basically the text of an article that I wrote for Navigation News last January. I am calling for IMO to recognise that SOLAS should move with the times and recognise that many sailors, professional and leisure will depend increasingly on the Internet.

 

[GHA]

I have no idea whether this is a cessation or a temporary outage. I must say that I have long been surprised that Northwood was continuing at all in these days of satellite communications and Internet contact. If RN and NATO navies are willing to move into the 2ist (even the 20th) century, then there is no reason for them to continue with 1950s technology. DWD is charged with (or, has agreed to) providing synoptic charts for GMDSS purposes.

Do you know if "providing synoptic charts" means they have to continue broadcasting over hf radio?
Must do. I hope. I didn't know til now that the hamburg frequencies are dwd.

Would be a shame if Northwood really has gone from the airwaves, can't remember the details mid Atlantic but I remember liking some things about Northwood and some about hamburg. Might have been as simple as the scheduling.

Oldvarnish is correct. Yes synoptic charts have human input which is why I always advocate keeping a close eye on GMDSS texts for the next 36 or so hours ahead. When it comes to more than 48 hours or so ahead, I have serious doubts whether the human can really add much to computer models. The confidence in these is evidenced by the Met Office and Met Eireann agreeing to name severe storms.

As a fellow single hander I suspect oldV might agree when weeks out seeing a human penstroke on a fax can mean a lot

And I think wfaxes definitely give you a much better feel for what's going on than limited area gribs as data limited, for instance if heading East towards the azores, if the high looks settled then good chance it will not change too much too quickly, if it's further south and skittish then you might not know when or where but good chance you'll get hammered by a low and might well be wise to get south a bit.

Is there a gmdss requirement for weather faxes world wide?

 

[michael_w]

Today, I tried pulling down wefax on HF from Northwood, but nothing heard. Shame as they used to update their charts every six hours. They haven't been available on the internet for a couple of months now.

 

[franksingleton]

Do you know if "providing synoptic charts" means they have to continue broadcasting over hf radio?
Must do. I hope.

Why? It is up to RN to decide what they do and how they do it for RN/NATO purposes. There must be a good military case for operational information to be transmitted via space based or other high tech methods, faster and more reliably than over terrestrial radio. They do not have any responsibility to serve non-military needs.

And I think wfaxes definitely give you a much better feel for what's going on than limited area gribs as data limited, for instance if heading East towards the azores, if the high looks settled then good chance it will not change too much too quickly, if it's further south and skittish then you might not know when or where but good chance you'll get hammered by a low and might well be wise to get south a bit.

As someone who used to draw synoptic charts, I have mixed feelings. I am all too aware of the lack of precision with which charts were drawn. On the scales used, the thickness of the pencil could nearly account for one wind force.

Why does this not give as good an idea as a man-drawn chart?

The data to produce GRIB forecast charts like this at 24 hour intervals from T=0 to T=120 hours for the large area shown here would be received in an email of size 50 kb, less than 10 kb a chart. displaying winds, isobars and rainfall.

Is there a gmdss requirement for weather faxes world wide?

You might like to scan through http://weather.mailasail.com/Franks-Weather/Solas-Gmdss-And-Leisure-Sailors. I set out the bones of the SOLAS/GMDSSrequirements. Much is directly quoted from source. In the section Weather Aspects of the GMDSS, it says

SOLAS requests nations to issue forecasts in graphical form where possible. Currently, this is mainly by Radiofax transmissions on HF/SSB. The Deutscher Wetterdienst provides a comprehensive Radiofax service for Europe

As an old (very) stager, I really do think that we should be moving on rather than looking back. As you realise, I like acting as devil’s advocate. As you will also realise, I spent my working life in an organisation that had to be using reliable technology. In the past that was R/T, then RTT and Radiofax. Times have moved on.

 

[GHA]

Why?

Wfax reception only requires the ability to receive, gribs need 2 way comms, are great and given plenty of data allowance then a wonderful resource. But 50K is a BIG file to receive a every day offshore, sat comms drop in and out and are costly, SSB & ham are great but same again, big file. Wfax can be received with a simple antenna, cheap radio plus a laptop/tablet etc.
To not have such a resource available mid ocean would be a great loss. From crossing using both satphone & wfax, without hesitation, wfax would be first choice. Low power, low cost, last to drop out due to tech problems.

Long may it be broadcast

 

[michael_w]

A problem with GRIBs is which model has been used? There is often a strong difference of opinion which can only be resolved by a human forecaster.

NOAA and OPC http://www.opc.ncep.noaa.gov/ state who has drawn the chart. That way you get a feel of what they find. Some favour jet stream influence, some not. In any event, the position of the fronts are an educated guess.

 

[DFL1010]

A problem with GRIBs is which model has been used? There is often a strong difference of opinion which can only be resolved by a human forecaster.

Blessing or curse?
I tend towards the former. I'd much rather be able to compare e.g. GFS vs ECMWF, maybe even add in some ensembles, and (try to) come to some reasonable understanding of the situation, over just looking at one model.
Add in scatterometry and sat imagery for confirmation reasons and there's a lot of merit in having multiple sources.

 

[DFL1010]

A problem with GRIBs is which model has been used? There is often a strong difference of opinion which can only be resolved by a human forecaster.

Blessing or curse?
I tend towards the former. I'd much rather be able to compare e.g. GFS vs ECMWF, maybe even add in some ensembles, and (try to) come to some reasonable understanding of the situation, over just looking at one model.
Add in scatterometry and sat imagery for confirmation reasons and there's a lot of merit in having multiple sources.

 

[Pye_End]

Wfax reception only requires the ability to receive, gribs need 2 way comms, are great and given plenty of data allowance then a wonderful resource. But 50K is a BIG file to receive a every day offshore, sat comms drop in and out and are costly, SSB & ham are great but same again, big file. Wfax can be received with a simple antenna, cheap radio plus a laptop/tablet etc.
To not have such a resource available mid ocean would be a great loss. From crossing using both satphone & wfax, without hesitation, wfax would be first choice. Low power, low cost, last to drop out due to tech problems.

Long may it be broadcast

+1

Losing Northwood is a very annoying. What cheap and easy options are we left with offshore in the Atlantic? How far does Hamburg extend?

 

[franksingleton]

Wfax reception only requires the ability to receive, gribs need 2 way comms, are great and given plenty of data allowance then a wonderful resource. But 50K is a BIG file to receive a every day offshore, sat comms drop in and out and are costly, SSB & ham are great but same again, big file. Wfax can be received with a simple antenna, cheap radio plus a laptop/tablet etc.
To not have such a resource available mid ocean would be a great loss. From crossing using both satphone & wfax, without hesitation, wfax would be first choice. Low power, low cost, last to drop out due to tech problems.

Long may it be broadcast

I do not disagree with much of what you say with some caveats. On his last RTW Robin K-J lost all comms except for Inmarsat. He did not, but could have used that for both GMDSS text services and email. My 50kb was for5-days Atlantic charts. For 3 days of the same, it would have been 30 kb. I think Sailmail places a 35kb limit on attachments nowadays.

Wefax is HF/SSB – but you seem to talk as though it were not. Is there some confusion in terminology?

I am not a blue water sailor and my SSB skills were not the best but I never found reception to be reliable, at least in the Med. Holding a good signal for 20 minutes to get one chart was problematical at times.

However, Northwood has always been a bonus courtesy of RN. The DWD service from Hamburg/Pinneburg has long been the GMDSS service and it is still there so there should be no problem for Wefax users whether Northwood has closed or not.

For how long, I cannot guess. You may remember the NWS query about use of HF –see http://weather.mailasail.com/Franks-Weather/Uscg-Hf-Broadcasts-Uncertain-Future. The technology is 1950s. Equipment is becoming costly and difficult to maintain. At some stage, there must be a replacement that provides synoptic charts, for those that still find them necessary, in seconds rather than in 20 minutes. IMO seems unable or unwilling to find a replacement. Mariners are taking matters into their own hands and developing use of modern technology in an ad hoc and uncoordinated manner.

Blue water sailors have long used Sailmail, Globalmarinenet or HAM/Winlink. The MailASail chart responder service can give you an Atlantic synoptic chart for 25 kb. Increasingly, cut-down Iridium systems such as the Delorme inrReach are making it easier and inexpensive to use the same service.

It is worrying that some will cross oceans without HF at all. They will cut themselves off from GMDSS safety services altogether and put themselves in real danger.

 

[GHA]

Wefax is HF/SSB – but you seem to talk as though it were not. Is there some confusion in terminology?

Maybe bad wording on my part, a big bonus of wfax is that it's one way comms, gribs need to have the shorestation and boat talking to each other. An advantage of wfax is you can get usable info with a cheap radio (like a degen 1103) , any old piece of wire and a laptop/tablet/smart phone. (As you know already )
Atlantic I could get a usable chart almost every time, maybe with some interference but readable & useful, for little power.
Would be a big loss if broadcasting wfax were to stop.

 

[franksingleton]

Well, DWD is there as the GMDSS service. You can rest assured that Radiofax will continue pro tem. The future is the problem. On my travels around the Med and elsewhere, I met and got to know long distance sailors. The majority sensibly, carried conventional HF/SSB radio, invariably two way. Most used email over HF. As you know, Sailmail was set up by long distance sailors for long distance sailors (Jim Corenman and the late Stan Honey.) Most used marine HF, some also used HAM. Most were able to and did use both RTT and Radiofax.

My main contention really is that the leisure and small boat community in general cannot expect the world to continue as it is now. The future will be high speed digital and analogue radio services will go. To some, the world will be a poorer place. To others it will be better.

The problem in implementation is, of course, the mass of low tech mariners. Not surprising because we are, sensibly, a conservative group by nature. The unknown is just how long HF services will continue – probably longer than I expect.

 

[haydude]

Likeley to be yet another cut to services because of Osborne's spending cuts

 

[franksingleton]

Likeley to be yet another cut to services because of Osborne's spending cuts

Maybe, maybe not but you may not have read all the earlier posts.. The fact remains that the RN Fax transmissions are not a public service. They are an operational RN/NATO service. Theey can be stopped temporarily or permanently at any time for military reasons. The Radiofax service for all non-military mariners is provided by the DWD. If or when that is discontinued will depend on the ability to maintain 1950s technology plus, I hope, the existence of viable alternatives.