Where is your radar, flybridge or below?

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Yes and no Mike.
I mean, that is definitely the case with sportfishermen boats, but since the OP mentioned trawlers, I replied along those lines in my previous post.
And also in the US, all proper trawlers are built the other way round.
Some of them (albeit the most extreme ones, battleship - style) have no helm at all upstair, just the access for handling the rib, aerials maintenance and possibly climbing to the monkey bridge.

Look at any of the mainstream US flybridge boat builders like SeaRay, Carver, Hatteras, Bertram etc and generally, the main and usually only helm position will be on the flybridge. Agreed that trawler yachts from the likes of Nordhavn, Outer Reef, Marlow etc have the main helm position in the pilot house but these are relatively niche products

 

[Robin]

That will be because on most US boats, the f/b helm is the only helm position and the lower helm is vestigial only, if it is fitted at all. In Europe of course, it tends to be the other way round. I think the fact that many US boats only have a f/b helm comes from their sportfishing tradition where it is necessary to be as high as possible to spot fish and to maximise visibility for backing down when one is hooked. For sure, the f/b helms on US boats are generally much more luxurious than Euro boats, not only in terms of having full instrumentation and nav kit but also in terms of having better wind protection, proper helm seats, all round covers and hardtops. In some ways, the US arrangement is better because most of the time, you drive a f/b boat from the f/b anyway and it is costly and wasteful of space to have a duplicate helm downstairs

This is the pilothouse of one, a Defever 49

And the Flybridge of the same boat

And of a more motor yacht style, the FB

And the downstairs helm

The Defever 49 (that one is sold and there are better ones) is a displacement speed trawler, the other one is a Hi-Star48 which is a 'fast trawler', with 2 x 375hp Cat 3208TA engines, really semi displacement with a cruising speed of 14kts or can go OK at 8kts cheaper. Either have very nice living aboard accomodation which is what we will be doing, but the Defever types are $100,000 more for the same age and that invested buys a whole lot of fuel whilst keeping the capital and reducing exposure to depreciation if we bottle out after a few years and go live on dirt, because this will be our only home, no bricks and mortar.

 

[Robin]

Yes and no Mike.
I mean, that is definitely the case with sportfishermen boats, but since the OP mentioned trawlers, I replied along those lines in my previous post.
And also in the US, all proper trawlers are built the other way round.
Some of them (albeit the most extreme ones, battleship - style) have no helm at all upstair, just the access for handling the rib, aerials maintenance and possibly climbing to the monkey bridge.

True trawlers are rare or out of our price range (like Nordhavn, Marlow, Fleming). The Defever 49 we like is displacement speed but even that is not a true trawler shape underwater. Note we are buying secondhand and to a max budget of $300,000 all in ready to go and sales taxes paid. Unless we win the lottery...

What are called 'fast trawlers' abound in the USA and most are semi-displacement, look a bit trawler like in profile but not underwater. Grand Banks is a good example, really these are planing hulls given enough hp and otherwise are semi-displacement.

Defever 49

Hi-Star 48

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

True trawlers are rare or out of our price range (like Nordhavn, Marlow, Fleming). The Defever 49 we like is displacement speed but even that is not a true trawler shape underwater. Note we are buying secondhand and to a max budget of $300,000 all in ready to go and sales taxes paid. Unless we win the lottery...

What are called 'fast trawlers' abound in the USA and most are semi-displacement, look a bit trawler like in profile but not underwater. Grand Banks is a good example, really these are planing hulls given enough hp and otherwise are semi-displacement

.

Point of order, your honour. De Fever and Hi Star are Taiwanese not US manufactured! De Fever has a good reputation though. I believe that longjohnsilver of this parish has one and it might even be a 49.
Yes you're right. Many trawler yachts that are marketed as long range displacement hulled boats do not have a true displacement form. That includes the likes of DeFever as you say and others like Ocean Alexander and Selene. Marlow, Fleming and the newer Grand Banks are different though because they are definitely semi displacement forms not full displacement although the builders will say that they are also designed for offshore passages at displacement speeds.
The only true round bilged, deep keeled displacement hulled boat from the makes you've mentioned is Nordhavn IMHO. I went to the Dusseldorf boat show last year and there was a Nordhavn, a Selene and a Fleming lined up next to each other. It was very striking how different the Nordhavn hull was in comparison to the other two; much fuller, deeper and more rounded. The other two had relatively shallow hard chine hulls albeit with fairly deep keels. I suppose if you plan to cross oceans, you want a Nordhavn but for more modest passagemaking, the DeFever would be just fine

Btw have you found this site http://www.defevercruisers.com/about.asp

and a few others dedicated to trawlering

http://www.trawlersandtrawlering.com/
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/trawler-yachts-120/
http://www.trawlerforum.com/f396127/general-discussion---trawler-forum/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nordhavndreamers/

 

[Robin]

.

Point of order, your honour. De Fever and Hi Star are Taiwanese not US manufactured! De Fever has a good reputation though. I believe that longjohnsilver of this parish has one and it might even be a 49.
Yes you're right. Many trawler yachts that are marketed as long range displacement hulled boats do not have a true displacement form. That includes the likes of DeFever as you say and others like Ocean Alexander and Selene. Marlow, Fleming and the newer Grand Banks are different though because they are definitely semi displacement forms not full displacement although the builders will say that they are also designed for offshore passages at displacement speeds.
The only true round bilged, deep keeled displacement hulled boat from the makes you've mentioned is Nordhavn IMHO. I went to the Dusseldorf boat show last year and there was a Nordhavn, a Selene and a Fleming lined up next to each other. It was very striking how different the Nordhavn hull was in comparison to the other two; much fuller, deeper and more rounded. The other two had relatively shallow hard chine hulls albeit with fairly deep keels. I suppose if you plan to cross oceans, you want a Nordhavn but for more modest passagemaking, the DeFever would be just fine

Btw have you found this site http://www.defevercruisers.com/about.asp

and a few others dedicated to trawlering

http://www.trawlersandtrawlering.com/
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/trawler-yachts-120/
http://www.trawlerforum.com/f396127/general-discussion---trawler-forum/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nordhavndreamers/

My fault, I should have said 'in the USA market'. Actually these days very little is still made in the USA and even Grand Banks is Taiwan or Chinese or whatever. I love the Nordhavn47 but in reality it is OTT for what we want for East Coast USA, Chesapeake Bay and ICW cruising with maybe a trip out to the Bahamas.

I've already spoken with longjohnsilver, his is a very lovely Defever 48 which is apparently the same hull as the 49 but no pilothouse and different layout. These are very much on our shopping list. We are already members of the Defever Owners Association and they are very helpful, several of them gave us the grand tour of their boats when we were over there prospecting.

I looked at Hatteras, some are OK but some have no downstairs helm position. They did a LRC but rather older and few about.

Likewise Ocean Alexander, we looked over an Ocean Alexander 50 Mk1 LRC in Virginia, but it was in a dreadful state, albeit it had cruised far and wide including to Chile and back. It is back on the market again now with a bit of re-varnishing but it needed rather more than a superficial spit and polish job.

Grand Banks for me have two dislikes, one is the teak decks because at the age we are buying they will be a costly problem, the other is they lack the covered seating area or sundeck of either the Defevers at 44, 48 and 49 or the likes of Hi-Star, Tradewinds* and so on.

*I think the Tradewinds are the same as Traders in the UK, with shades of Gludy. Also lots of them have Cummins diesels and virtually every boat of any kind listed with these has had one or both engines replaced in a relatively short lifetime of 20 years. Boats with Ford Lehmans llike Defevers, Detroit two stroke diesels and Caterpillar 3208s in Grand Banks and Hi-Star etc seem to have original engines even at 30 years old which may or may not mean something, but it does ring alarm bells about Cummins reliability!

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

My fault, I should have said 'in the USA market'. Actually these days very little is still made in the USA and even Grand Banks is Taiwan or Chinese or whatever. I love the Nordhavn47 but in reality it is OTT for what we want for East Coast USA, Chesapeake Bay and ICW cruising with maybe a trip out to the Bahamas.

I've already spoken with longjohnsilver, his is a very lovely Defever 48 which is apparently the same hull as the 49 but no pilothouse and different layout. These are very much on our shopping list. We are already members of the Defever Owners Association and they are very helpful, several of them gave us the grand tour of their boats when we were over there prospecting.

I looked at Hatteras, some are OK but some have no downstairs helm position. They did a LRC but rather older and few about.

Likewise Ocean Alexander, we looked over an Ocean Alexander 50 Mk1 LRC in Virginia, but it was in a dreadful state, albeit it had cruised far and wide including to Chile and back. It is back on the market again now with a bit of re-varnishing but it needed rather more than a superficial spit and polish job.

Grand Banks for me have two dislikes, one is the teak decks because at the age we are buying they will be a costly problem, the other is they lack the covered seating area or sundeck of either the Defevers at 44, 48 and 49 or the likes of Hi-Star, Tradewinds* and so on.

*I think the Tradewinds are the same as Traders in the UK, with shades of Gludy. Also lots of them have Cummins diesels and virtually every boat of any kind listed with these has had one or both engines replaced in a relatively short lifetime of 20 years. Boats with Ford Lehmans llike Defevers, Detroit two stroke diesels and Caterpillar 3208s in Grand Banks and Hi-Star etc seem to have original engines even at 30 years old which may or may not mean something, but it does ring alarm bells about Cummins reliability!

Yes you're right. All the major trawler brands are built in Taiwan or China including even Nordhavn. Personally I have never heard of the Tradewinds brand so thats a new one on me.
So how come you are looking at US boating? I must admit that we have perhaps a similar idea in that in a few years time when I semi-retire, we've thought about buying a new or used trawler type yacht in the US and cruising the Eastern seaboard and Caribbean before shipping her back to Europe. What do you have in mind?

 

[Robin]

Yes you're right. All the major trawler brands are built in Taiwan or China including even Nordhavn. Personally I have never heard of the Tradewinds brand so thats a new one on me.
So how come you are looking at US boating? I must admit that we have perhaps a similar idea in that in a few years time when I semi-retire, we've thought about buying a new or used trawler type yacht in the US and cruising the Eastern seaboard and Caribbean before shipping her back to Europe. What do you have in mind?

I've sent you a PM as some of the answer is not for general consumption, but we are going to the USA permanently, no shore base here or there, to live on a boat. After over 40 years of sailing I am a raw beginner with mobos, hence some of the daft questions.

 

[MapisM]

Many trawler yachts that are marketed as long range displacement hulled boats do not have a true displacement form. That includes the likes of DeFever as you say and others like Ocean Alexander and Selene. Marlow, Fleming and the newer Grand Banks are different though because they are definitely semi displacement forms not full displacement although the builders will say that they are also designed for offshore passages at displacement speeds.
The only true round bilged, deep keeled displacement hulled boat from the makes you've mentioned is Nordhavn IMHO. I went to the Dusseldorf boat show last year and there was a Nordhavn, a Selene and a Fleming lined up next to each other. It was very striking how different the Nordhavn hull was in comparison to the other two; much fuller, deeper and more rounded. The other two had relatively shallow hard chine hulls albeit with fairly deep keels.

Actually, associating a displacement hull with the rounded bilge is a misconception. A rather common one, but that's what it is.
With full D hulls, there are various pros and cons between hard chine and round bilge, but both have their place, when talking of trawlers.
Even when talking of true trawlers, which are - as the name implies - commercial boats built to "trawl", i.e. drag fishing nets.
Just look at the pic below: if that's not a full D hull (in spite of hard chines), I don't know what else is. Makes a Nordhavn look light in comparison.
And btw, it's an example of a boat with no helm station at all on the f/b.

On a side note, are you sure to have seen hard chines on a Selene?
Afaik, they do have a flattish hull shape, but not hard chines.

 

[MapisM]

we are going to the USA permanently, no shore base here or there, to live on a boat

Out of curiosity, can you get a permanent permit in the US, without working there?
I'm assuming you are a EU and not a US citizen, of course.

 

[jfm]

Wow, nice bit of kit, by the look of it.
Maybe I'm just out of touch on all the bells and whistles of modern electronics, because I can't imagine Furuno, Raym or Garmin not keeping up with Koden.

Yup my Garmin has choice of 24/48rpm, split screen dual range function etc etc

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Actually, associating a displacement hull with the rounded bilge is a misconception. A rather common one, but that's what it is.
With full D hulls, there are various pros and cons between hard chine and round bilge, but both have their place, when talking of trawlers.
Even when talking of true trawlers, which are - as the name implies - commercial boats built to "trawl", i.e. drag fishing nets.
Just look at the pic below: if that's not a full D hull (in spite of hard chines), I don't know what else is. Makes a Nordhavn look light in comparison.
And btw, it's an example of a boat with no helm station at all on the f/b.

On a side note, are you sure to have seen hard chines on a Selene?
Afaik, they do have a flattish hull shape, but not hard chines.

What is that boat btw? I take your point but maybe the hard chine hull in this case is as a result of the simple steel fabrication techniques available to the builder or a particular requirement for good initial roll stability, rather than a deliberate choice of hull form by the naval architect. I dont know whether this boat makes Nordhavns look light. How much does it weigh? Certainly if you look at most Dutch steel built displacement boats, they have hard chines because their steel fabrication technique dictates that. Fabricating a round bilged hull form from steel is a lot more difficult and expensive than using flat plate.
Yes I know what I saw at Dusseldorf and I was very surprised because I was expecting the Selene to look very similar underneath to the Nordhavn and it definitely didn't

 

[MapisM]

I dont know whether this boat makes Nordhavns look light.

LOL, you bet! I quickly checked Nordhavn website.
That boat is 61' LOA and 18' beam, and the closer Nordhavn model is the 60', whose LOA is 62'+ and has the same beam.
But the first is no less than 50k lbs heavier, and has larger tanks on top of that...

To answer your other question, she's actually a custom built one off, as most US steel trawlers.
Labelled as Precision Marine, but I don't know where the yard actually is, somewhere on the US W coast IIRC.

Re. steel, it doesn't actually "dictate" hard chines, though that's surely less expensive, as you also said.
Otoh, there are also steel boats built with much more curved shapes, even for the bulb. If you look at the one in the previous pic, it's much simpler than Nabla-style bulbs, but also the latter can be built in steel.
Cost is not the only factor, anyway. Frinstance, the overall resistance to rolling (not just the initial stability) is higher with hard chines, AOTBE. Also at anchor, btw.

At the end of the day, as always with boats, it's a matter of compromising, depending on budget, vessel purpose, and so forth.

 

[Robin]

Out of curiosity, can you get a permanent permit in the US, without working there?
I'm assuming you are a EU and not a US citizen, of course.

SWMBO is American which makes it all possible and I don't intend working there as I will be retired but SWMBO (still a licenced nurse) wants to work part time to top up her Social Security pot and get some free perk medical cover. We have family on both sides of the pond but it is my turn now to be that side as SWMBO has been over here for 24 years. In any event a limited pension goes a lot farther over there than it does here these days even if not living afloat.

I still have to get a resident visa which entails a medical at their special place near the embassy in London and then if that is OK an interview a few days later (not same day, buqqer) at the US Embassy proper. The medical requires you to have a load of innoculations we don't normally have here which they will happily do at a nice price, but for some odd reason they waive several of these for applicants 65 and over! I fail to understand why it is OK to work in the USA, or make regular visits, but if you chose to stay are suspected of carrying every disease under the sun!

 

[MapisM]

SWMBO is American which makes it all possible

I see, surely that's a different situation altogether.

I fail to understand why it is OK to work in the USA, or make regular visits, but if you chose to stay are suspected of carrying every disease under the sun!

Yep, the requirements you mention are scary.
I wonder if going abroad sor a short time every 6 months and then ask for a new touristic visa could be a workaround.
If so, some tequila a couple of times per year could be a nice B plan...

 

[Robin]

I see, surely that's a different situation altogether.

Yep, the requirements you mention are scary.
I wonder if going abroad sor a short time every 6 months and then ask for a new touristic visa could be a workaround.
If so, some tequila a couple of times per year could be a nice B plan...

No point and they have that trick (Canada/Bahamas/Mexico) covered anyway! It is not scary so much as costly and time consuming to get the resident visa. I reckon all up it will cost near £2,000 by the time I've been to London twice, paid the fee for the medical, paid my own GP for the certified records they want first, paid for the visa fee, got new photographs (different size to EU/UK ones so have to come from specially approved sources at rather higher cost and finally paid them to give me any inoculations still missing from their list. They warn that it can take 3-4 months to complete the formalities.

Another problem is buying the boat. Each State is different but if we buy from say Florida to take to our new base in Virginia, we have just 90 days (it used to be 10) to get out before they charge a 6% sales tax on the boat, even though it will be secondhand. Not a problem once there but it is if we buy one beforehand because we need an address in Virginia to register it to and pay sales tax there, 2% but capped at a max $2,000, much lower than Florida. Then we have to get it out of State and do a 1,000ml delivery trip, so not something you can do in a long weekend! The boat is liable for the sales tax or the clock to leave is ticking from the minute of handover and you cannot just park it ashore until ready to take it off. Our address will be the boat too, but we need an address to get the boat... Ways and means but oh boy is it a logistical nightmare. Then there is sending our stuff over, where to, probably into storage initially or a relative's home (miles away of course..) and then collecting it and putting it on board. Won't even have a car to start until we can buy one, need an address again to register it and so on and so on. Oh and then we need to take a new driver's test for a new licence. Never ending!

 

[stelican]

I know it would be ideal to have a display in both positions but if only one then which, flybridge or below?

I ask because we (after 40+ years of rag and stick but mobo novices) are moving to the USA to live on a mobo, most probably a trawler style motor yacht about 45-50ft. Many of the ones we are looking at on the internet have radar on the flybridge but not at the lower helm position which surprises me a bit. In fog or heavy rain which is the preferred steering position, up top or below? I have seen boats with all the main electronics at the lower helm, but it seems those are in the minority, might be just coincidence though.

Next question, why do the majority of USA mobos NOT have bow thrusters when it seems over here most do?

My experience in heavy fog cross channel on three occasions is to drive from the upper helm as this allows you to hear foghorns and hear ships appoaching at close quarters,
I have had the advantage of another crew member below to monitor the radar screen
I felt much safer to be out in the elements relying on eyes and ears for close quarter situations. So maybe best set up is radar screen at upper helm if you only have one screen

 

[Robin]

My experience in heavy fog cross channel on three occasions is to drive from the upper helm as this allows you to hear foghorns and hear ships appoaching at close quarters,
I have had the advantage of another crew member below to monitor the radar screen
I felt much safer to be out in the elements relying on eyes and ears for close quarter situations. So maybe best set up is radar screen at upper helm if you only have one screen

I'm going to aim for both places I think. On our sailboats we have always had radar at the chart table below and not repeated in the cockpit, but the two places are within sight and voice contact. That said I'm a firm believer that simply looking at a radar picture is not enough because it is how the picture has/is evolving that matters which requires a dedicated study, something you can't do and helm and keep a visual lookout at the same time. Modern radars with MARPA and AIS overlays make it easier but still need more than the occasional glance to use properly. Hopefully when we find our ideal boat the previous owners will just have installed the latest networked top of the range gear, before the pig takes off that is!

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

LOL, you bet! I quickly checked Nordhavn website.
That boat is 61' LOA and 18' beam, and the closer Nordhavn model is the 60', whose LOA is 62'+ and has the same beam.
But the first is no less than 50k lbs heavier, and has larger tanks on top of that...

To answer your other question, she's actually a custom built one off, as most US steel trawlers.
Labelled as Precision Marine, but I don't know where the yard actually is, somewhere on the US W coast IIRC.

Re. steel, it doesn't actually "dictate" hard chines, though that's surely less expensive, as you also said.
Otoh, there are also steel boats built with much more curved shapes, even for the bulb. If you look at the one in the previous pic, it's much simpler than Nabla-style bulbs, but also the latter can be built in steel.
Cost is not the only factor, anyway. Frinstance, the overall resistance to rolling (not just the initial stability) is higher with hard chines, AOTBE. Also at anchor, btw.

At the end of the day, as always with boats, it's a matter of compromising, depending on budget, vessel purpose, and so forth.

Ok a bit unfair to compare a custom steel built boat to a grp production boat. This is what I mean by the difference between the Selene hull and the Nordhavn hull

Selene here

Nordhavn here

I dont know what you think but I find the shallower hard chine hull of the Selene somewhat different to the deeper round bige hull of the Nordhavn. To me, the Selene hull looks like a SD hull as you might see on a Fleming or Trader, for example but of course, its not SD because it hasn't got the power. You're much more of an expert on D hulls than me but this difference was very apparent when I saw the 2 boats in Dusseldorf