Where do old boats go?

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Cerddinen

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Reading the news article on the restructuring of Bavaria made me wonder about the size of the new boat market in the UK, and where we will find space for all the boats that Bavaria etc. must sell in order to stay afloat. If the average life of a grp boat is 30 years this means mooring space has to exist for the accumulation of 30 years of production. Since there are very few boats in my local marina over 10 years old, and very few on river moorings over 20 years old, where have all the rest gone? There is no boating equivalent of a car scrapyard so where do old boats go to die? Mud berths and back gardens?
 
"If the average life of a grp boat is 30 years"

Now you've got me worried - my boat is just coming up to her 30th birthday!

Actually, I don't believe there is yet an average life for GRP boats. Unlike plywood, or some tin or wooden boats, they just seem to keep going. Long live frozen snot.

As to where to put the new ones - more marinas or more dry sailing. Only problem is, planning permission, NIMBYism, etc, seems to mitigate against expansion of moorings.
 
Twister_Ken said:
Now you've got me worried - my boat is just coming up to her 30th birthday!
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Ah - she's just a youngster then, barely old enough to be let out on her own :)

If we are talking about cruising boats, I would imagine that the vast majority of GRP boats built are still in use today (surely at least 75%). Currently this is managed by an ever-expanding market, which in turn requires an ever-increasing supply of moorings / marinas and so on.

There will come a time when the market stops expanding, and in that case the second hand value of certain boats will plummet and there may need to be wholesale scrapping of GRP boats.
 
This is a huge problem for boat builders. GRP boats effectively have an indefinite life provided there are people at the bottom of the chain prepared to buy them. As we see on these fora there is a ready market for boats that were at the top 30 years ago that can be bought for less than the price of a small car and be used in an economical fashion. This market typically provides an entry point for new users who move up as well as for those of limited means to participate.

Going to the other end of the spectrum and in the new boat market sales depend on a new entrant joining the chain and a new place to moor the boat. For the 10 year period roughly 1996-2007 neither of these conditions were a problem. New entrants came in as a result of growing wealth. Not all new entrants bought a boat and many chartered creating demand for new boats. In 2001 when I bought my boat for charter use, the operator put 63 new boats on his fleet which was then about 250 strong. Marinas all over Europe expanded, and particularly in the UK they were in areas where there had been no marinas, so widening the market.

This has all changed. Not only have economies slowed in general, but those which are likely to expand most such as India and China will not be consumers of yachts, but rather suppliers. The current builders will be fighting over a smaller market and operating with a higher cost base. You can now see why Bain wanted out and leave Bavaria to the vultures! (Of course one could argue that they should never have got in as this was all obvious 5 years ago- but greed is blind)

On a practical note it is relatively easy to see sailing boats always being in demand even when they are old because they can be kept going on a relative shoestring. However, not so sure about all the huge power boats built in the last 10-15 years. Who is going to keep them in working order when the engines are obsolete and new engines cost more than the boat? Glad it is not my problem!

Of course now that Lord Mandy has been introduced to the joys of boating he might be persuaded to start a boat scrappage scheme!
 
Mine's been to Cherboug (three times), Alderney (3 times), St Malo (once), Jersey (once), St Vaast (twice) Poole (once) Swannage (once) and Yarmouth, Lymington, Cowes (East Cowes anyway), Bembridge, Buckler's Hard more often than I can think and that's just this year. BTW She's 43 years old and still going strong.
 
I wondered that. Is a boat no longer just a boat, perhaps?

Having poked around on lotsa yachts at SBS-and my knowledge of modern boats is 8 years out of date-I happened upon the BAV38, and very nice it was too.

Not my cup of tea exactly but a much maligned builder knocking out very sellable, user friendly, comfortable 'Space' on the water.

As a cheap second home with a bit of remotely controlled, all furling sailing for Dad, a big nippy engine for keeping the family to their busy deadlines/low boredom threshold, plenty of sprawling space and hot water and windows and bright lights for inclement damp days in port, surely the modern Ben/Bav/Jen/ is a year round country cottage for the price of a marina berth, without the security and diy issues? And after 5 or 10 years chop it in or move on to some other leisure activity?

Compared to the price of a waterfront one bed holiday appartment with comparable service charges, isn't this what will continue to drive Bavarias non charter boat sales?

The ageing secondhand fleet will last as long as someone is willing to maintain or replace all that gear on board.
Demonstrably as plastic boats get older, any duff ones will have broken and quietly 'gone away', leaving old 'uns but good 'uns at prices simply too attractive to let em be broken up ! ...Chuck in a couple of busy hurricane years and there will still be a need to keep cranking out new boats I reckon.
 
Cerddinen said:
Reading the news article on the restructuring of Bavaria made me wonder about the size of the new boat market in the UK, and where we will find space for all the boats that Bavaria etc. must sell in order to stay afloat. If the average life of a grp boat is 30 years this means mooring space has to exist for the accumulation of 30 years of production. Since there are very few boats in my local marina over 10 years old, and very few on river moorings over 20 years old, where have all the rest gone? There is no boating equivalent of a car scrapyard so where do old boats go to die? Mud berths and back gardens?
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All over Florida you see sights like this. Local authorities have a blitz every so often but they drift back in as and eventually sink or break loose and wash ashore.
 
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The life of GRP boats.

The early ones did suffer from the pox, later editions will probably outlast all of us.
I believe they have an indefinite life, so Bavarias will populate the world seas and oceans.


I leave you with that thought.
 
There is another problem, akin to the problem with modern upmarket cars like BMW. The cost of fixing them escalates after the warranty runs out. And it is not a DIY situation with modern systems.
So a nice 30ft boat that needs a new rig will look fairly unattractive as it gets old and the market is oversupplied. New winches? Engine? One could very quickly reach the purchase price in fixing up. Keeping it as a holiday cottage will certainly drive the marina/mooring prices up, as places get more difficult to find. Apart from the Mobo problems, I can see a lot of bigger boats struggling to find buyers and either costing lots to scrap, or 'disappearing'... to the deeps.
A
 
we had one boat at our club where the owner solved the issue using an electric saw and the local dumpit. The boat was a Cutlass 27 that he literally couldnt give away.

Its only just becoming an issue. Hitherto, new marinas were being built as fast as boats, and there were lots of spaces in the rivers and estuaries where you could cheaply keep a boat that wasnt worth much. But its become an issue at our club where there are maybe 30 boats that line the back fence of the compound and are never lauched. Some are the never ending restoration projects but most are old boats owned by old owners who dont do anything much about them since storage has so far cost nothing.

In the end they will turn into liabilities not assets and you will have some small ones dumped. An industry will grow up disposing of the bigger ones. And you'll have to pay the cost.
 
Could there not arise an industry in reconditioning old but sound grp boats?
The laws of physics don't change and materials science (grp, lead) seem pretty mature.

Just doesn't seem right that a new boat can be built from scratch for less than it costs to outfit a sound hull with new gear. At present it is uneconomical because the DIYer is unable to source the gear at the prices that manufacturers can.

If only all boats were wooden.... I have the remains of two 30ftrs stacked up beside my house, could be a good few years worth of winter fuel :D
 
Think there are a couple of flaws in that argument.

Firstly - you have to strip the old boat down to basically a bare hull - thats labour you hve to py for - and then pay charges to scrap all the material.

Then you have to refit new gear into spaces not designed to fit originally and perhaps modified by 30 years of keen owners.


Whilst you might get discounts on the gear, but you will probably have to have a bespoke fit out plan for every single boat meaning no economies of scale in production, and laborious fitting and running of wires - no just dropping a premade wiring loom in.

Compare that to Ben Jen Bav - it all rolls out of factories, machine made - identical and is screwed, glued together in the same way hundreds of times - labour is minimised

At the end of your process you get say a 30 year old hull to a 35 year old design with new fittings that due to the additional labour used probably costs the same ( if not more) than a modern equivalent. What will poeple buy?
 
Tranona said:
there are people at the bottom of the chain prepared to buy them
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My arse, provided there are people who want to sail instead of polishing their ferking investment. Or, sueing folk who have the audacity to scratch the name off and put a couple of marks on it.
It's a liability not an investmet, and well worth paying what you can afford to have. If you are strugling to keep up appearences, get a MAB, they are cost effective but time intensive.
 
Twister_Ken said:
"If the average life of a grp boat is 30 years"

Now you've got me worried - my boat is just coming up to her 30th birthday!

Actually, I don't believe there is yet an average life for GRP boats. Unlike plywood, or some tin or wooden boats, they just seem to keep going. Long live frozen snot.

As to where to put the new ones - more marinas or more dry sailing. Only problem is, planning permission, NIMBYism, etc, seems to mitigate against expansion of moorings.
Click to expand...

I always thought you were an 'if god wanted plastic boats he would have made plastic trees' brass plaque on transom type. I might start talking to you from now on without tuggin on my forelock :rolleyes:
 
DownWest said:
There is another problem, akin to the problem with modern upmarket cars like BMW. The cost of fixing them escalates after the warranty runs out. And it is not a DIY situation with modern systems.
So a nice 30ft boat that needs a new rig will look fairly unattractive as it gets old and the market is oversupplied. New winches? Engine? One could very quickly reach the purchase price in fixing up. Keeping it as a holiday cottage will certainly drive the marina/mooring prices up, as places get more difficult to find. Apart from the Mobo problems, I can see a lot of bigger boats struggling to find buyers and either costing lots to scrap, or 'disappearing'... to the deeps.
A
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I remember reading a few years ago that the cost of building a Ford Fiesta from spare parts is something like £2m.

The boat market is different as the parts come from third party suppliers, and fit across all marques. There are plenty of 30 year old boats about with new rigs, new engines and new sails.
 
Cerddinen said:
Since there are very few boats in my local marina over 10 years old, and very few on river moorings over 20 years old, where have all the rest gone?
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I've just bought a 30 year-old grp boat. It'll probably be dry-sailed on the lake. Or possibly from a swinging mooring, if I can steel myself to double my investment.
 
BoyBlue49 said:
The early ones did suffer from the pox, later editions will probably outlast all of us.
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Actually, early fibreglass seems often to have been better made than the later stuff. Osmosis - if it is a problem at all - seems to be mainly a problem for 80's stuff. I have heard it suggested that this was when GRP manufacturer was made cheaper by shifting from hot to ambient cure - anyone know if this is true? Did Westerly Marine construction have huge ovens? At their peak in the 70's Reliant were the biggest commercial GRP company in the world, and cured 25,000+ cars a year in ovens.
 
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