Where and when does our islands Coast begin and end ? a thought on the matter

[Capt Popeye]

Yes well been watching some of that TV series called COAST and been irked by a particular episode on our South Eastern coast line.

It appears that the Team investigated where the definition of Coast starts and stops ie, what is Coast ?

The presenters in the prog appear to state that the Map Makers Ordanance Survey have gone along with the view that where the Tide reaches is reguarded as Coast

That irks me as in the TV prog they stated that in the River Thames its Coast up till it reaches Tedington

Maybe i am just a fuddy duddy or indeed miss the point somehow, but to me, Coast is our land region abutted by a Sea or a Major Seaway like the English Channel; the rivers have foreshores, beach's and banks not a Coast, dont they ?

 

[Railbob]

I believe, of course I might be wrong, that a coast is any stretch of tidal water that abuts the land. So in theory the Thames is tidal up to Teddington therefore the coast is up to Teddington.

 

[westhinder]

I believe, of course I might be wrong, that a coast is any stretch of tidal water that abuts the land. So in theory the Thames is tidal up to Teddington therefore the coast is up to Teddington.

By that definition I live on the coast, as I live near the head of the tidal river Schelde (which is in Gent). We are 75 NM upstream from the mouth of the river (Breskens), which is 50 km over land, and we are 70 km from Oostende. No one in their right mind would say we live on the coast, we are firmly inland.
I do live on an ancient sand dune in a bend of the river, though. Geology and common sense are two different things.

 

[Capt Popeye]

I believe, of course I might be wrong, that a coast is any stretch of tidal water that abuts the land. So in theory the Thames is tidal up to Teddington therefore the coast is up to Teddington.

Hi Railbob yes but I cannot get my head around the sittuation of going to the Coast meaning going to Teddington, the Coast to me means on the the Thames its Southend on Sea, Gravesend on Sea not got the right image for me ?

 

[LittleSister]

Define it how you like. What does it matter? The application of a word is only matter of convention.

The universe does not come packaged in discrete bits with an inherent identity of definitely 'coast' or definitely 'not coast'.

You say that to your mind coast has to front sea. Fair enough. But where does 'sea' end and 'river' begin, or 'ocean' begin? They are not fundamentally different things.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Maybe i am just a fuddy duddy or indeed miss the point somehow, but to me, Coast is our land region abutted by a Sea or a Major Seaway like the English Channel; the rivers have foreshores, beach's and banks not a Coast, dont they ?

How exactly would you define where the shores of the Thames Estuary become the foreshores of the River Thames?

 

[westhinder]

Define it how you like. What does it matter? The application of a word is only matter of convention.

The universe does not come packaged in discrete bits with an inherent identity of definitely 'coast' or definitely 'not coast'.

You say that to your mind coast has to front sea. Fair enough. But where does 'sea' end and 'river' begin, or 'ocean' begin? They are not fundamentally different things.

They are different things, which is why people have invented different words for them. It may be difficult to come up with clear cut and mutually exclusive definitions, but everyone will tell you that a river flows between two banks and runs towards the sea, the sea being much more extensive, where you do not see or have the feeling of two more or less parallel banks. Where the river cleanly cuts through the shore, eg the Tyne, or the Maas/Rhine, no one is in any doubt where the river ends and the sea begins. There are plenty of cases where that transition is not so clean and people have come up with words like ‘estuary’ to describe this particular transitional area.
I agree with you that where the various constituent parts of an estuary transit into the next stage will be largely a matter of convention. In other cases the boundaries will be more self-evident. Looking at a map, everyone will feel that the English Channel/La Manche ends between the South Foreland and Cap Gris Nez/Blanc Nez.

 

[Graham376]

Maybe look at what are inland waters, to determine what are coastal?

Inland waterways and categorisation of waters

 

[LittleSister]

They are different things, which is why people have invented different words for them. It may be difficult to come up with clear cut and mutually exclusive definitions, but . . .

Of course I am aware of the conventional use of the terms, regularly use them myself, and don't have a problem with them. I am not arguing against them!

I am, however, arguing against your suggestion that we have different words for them because they are different things. It is the other way around. We find it useful (or pleasing) to distinguish between them, so we give them different names, so we consider them different things.

I am merely highlighting the nature of the difference between these 'things': that the distinctions between them are matters of language and social convention, not anything inherent in the things themselves. There are plenty of variations between languages in their divisions of 'things' to demonstrate this. In some languages what we in English call a river that drains into the sea has a different name (i.e. is considered something different) to a 'river' that flows into another river. Again, some languages, such as English, consider sheep and goats to be different things, in others they are the same thing.

You say a river runs towards the sea, but about half the time a tidal river is running away from the sea. As you note, it is sometimes difficult to tell where a river ends and a sea begins. In English we tend to use the words estuary and delta, but these things don't label or distinguish themselves. Is the Baltic a sea or a river estuary? What about the Med? What about 'rivers' that only run seasonally or even more sporadically, and are dry most of the time? Is the 'North Sea' the North Sea, or the 'German Sea' as it used to be called in English (I have a vague recollection was also at one time called the West Sea in Dutch), or is it not a sea but an ocean, as it used to also be labelled the 'German Ocean' on English maps. (For heavens sake don't get me started on maps vs. charts! )

So when Captain Popeye rails against the Ordnance Survey's definition of coast (which may well have been garbled by the article he refers to, just to complicate matters!), he won't ever be able to resolve the matter by studying ever more closely the water itself, the land itself, or their intersection itself. He will only be able to do so by recognising that what is and what is not coast is a matter of language and convention, and either using a definition that someone else gives, or using his own.

 

[25931]

"The border of land near the sea, the seashore " seems to me to be the way that "coast" is generally regarded and happens to be what my copy of Concise Oxford says.

 

[LittleSister]

"The border of land near the sea, the seashore " seems to me to be the way that "coast" is generally regarded and happens to be what my copy of Concise Oxford says.

Exactly so!

 

[DJE]

It's not the coast if the water isn't salt. Pick a number for salinity and call that the boundary?

Or pick a minimum distance to the other bank of the river and draw a line across.

 

[Stemar]

Seems to me that it's like everything else. You make a sensible definition and it'll cover 99%, but there are always edge cases for people to argue about because they don't work so well. We all "know" what life is, it's natural stuff that stuff that reproduces itself, then along come viruses. Are they alive? Same with laws. We all know what rape is, but where's the line between encouragement and coercion? How drunk is too drunk to consent?

Anyway, getting back to the original, how about this as a definition "Tidal waters as far upstream as the first bridge"

Now we can fight over what to do with the Mediterranean and the Baltic...

 

[johnalison]

It’s a TV programme, not the OED. Journalists are not well known for sticking to the facts, and as long as they stick to the Reithian principles of entertain and inform it doesn’t worry me. Maybe they just ran out of stories.

 

[Capt Popeye]

Seems to me that it's like everything else. You make a sensible definition and it'll cover 99%, but there are always edge cases for people to argue about because they don't work so well. We all "know" what life is, it's natural stuff that stuff that reproduces itself, then along come viruses. Are they alive? Same with laws. We all know what rape is, but where's the line between encouragement and coercion? How drunk is too drunk to consent?

Anyway, getting back to the original, how about this as a definition "Tidal waters as far upstream as the first bridge"

Now we can fight over what to do with the Mediterranean and the Baltic...

Yea and Rivers that do not have Bridges across their tidal reaches ?

Or rivers who have bridges in the Estuaries so the tidal reaches are far inland ?

 

[Capt Popeye]

Exactly so!

So why did you not say so earlier ? {#

 

[Capt Popeye]

I believe, of course I might be wrong, that a coast is any stretch of tidal water that abuts the land. So in theory the Thames is tidal up to Teddington therefore the coast is up to Teddington.

So would that make London a Coastal City then ?

 

[Capt Popeye]

It’s a TV programme, not the OED. Journalists are not well known for sticking to the facts, and as long as they stick to the Reithian principles of entertain and inform it doesn’t worry me. Maybe they just ran out of stories.

Might refer you to the fact that the Coast series had The Open University involved and the Presenters were Scientists, Geologists etc etc not Newspaper Hacks or BBC Reporters and ilk

The piece was based upon a stated Ordanance Survey report which one might hope was based on some facts or regognition of factual evidence; guess they were just trying to turn our World upside down again ? = tossers

 

[25931]

Might refer you to the fact that the Coast series had The Open University involved and the Presenters were Scientists, Geologists etc etc.

. I am not impressed. I pre-date the Open University and presumptuous Presenters. I respect serious seekers after knowledge, whatever their titles may be, whatever their subject, but I have no time for those who ,seeking their moment in the public eye, try to impose their redefinition of terms on which ordinary people like me have agreed for generations.

 

[colind3782]

It's not the coast if the water isn't salt. Pick a number for salinity and call that the boundary?

I vaguely remember that the Amazon pushes fresh water some 200 miles out into the Atlantic though.