Where and how to hoist things

[robertt]

Can someone lend a hand with advice please?

I have an octahedral aluminium type radar reflector that was in a locker when I bought my boat but am not really sure where or how to hoist/position it. I suppose the higher the better. I have read that it can be hoisted on the backstay but I'm not really sure how to do that. I understand that many, eg Firdell blipper types are attached to the mast.

I also wonder about how and where to hoist day shapes eg cone for motor sailing and ball for anchoring. Again I inherited these with the boat and they are the fold flat sort.

There are little halyards (not sure if wrong terminology as nothing to do with the sails) coming down from the spreaders but these are of very thin string, are these just for pennants and burgees? I hoisted the radar reflector on one but it just turned round and around and got all twisted up in a mess!

Thanks for any pointers

 

[prv]

You will need some kind of halyard to hoist all these things. Our previous boat was liberally equipped with signal halyards from both mastheads, from the peak of the mizzen gaff, and from small crosstrees at the hounds. Newer designs tend to have fewer bits of string draped around.

On our new modern boat I use the spinnaker halyard to hoist things in the foretriangle (anchor light and ball, motoring cone, etc). I have a fixed radar reflector at the masthead (small, probably useless, but complies with the law) so don't need to worry about hoisting that. If you want to pull your old-style "rain catcher" up the backstay then you will need to seize a block to it part-way up, with a halyard running through it.

Pete

 

[uxb]

Throw the reflector overboard- they are a waste of space..

Think about it: if it's at all rough your great big chunk of aluminium mast and spreaders is going to be gyrating about a fair bit- making shapes that will reflect any radar beams.( kind of similar to the shapes of that stupid little reflector clanging about up your mast) If it's flat calm then that great big slab of aluminium mast is going to be ..... reflecting radar beams. So is your engine. And all that nice, round shiny stainless steel all over your deck and spray hood.

 

[jamesjermain]

Octahedral radar reflectors need to be hoisted in the 'rain-catching' position to be at all effective - that means one of the 'bowls' must be pointing upwards (so that it would fill with rain!). Most are not supplied with the right holes in the right position to be able to do this so you may have to rig up your own bridle. Hoisted pointy end up these reflectors are next to useless.

The higher you can get the reflector the better. A block half way up the backstay is good but will it interfere with the sail as you tack/gybe. Many are hoisted on a signal halyard to one of the cross trees - probably the port one if you are also using the cross trees for burgees and/or courtesy flags.

Signal shapes such as balls and cones are usually hoisted in the fore triangle of yachts and this is quite adequate for the anchor ball. The motor sailing cone is a bit more difficult because the genny, if set, will obscure the triangle. There's no easy answer to this - most of us just live with it - those who bother with a cone, that is.

 

[jerrytug]

They are all useless,according to a report which was triggered by the loss of the "Ouzo" in 2007 (?). Plus weight, windage and snags aloft.
However I resignedly haul one up at night,poor viz etc so some busybody can't say anything.
I would dearly like to know what it is in active reflectors like Sea-me's etc which makes them worth £500,I asked the guy and he went massively cagey on me,which suggests they just contain a 50p chip from China unless anyone knows different!
"Performance of Marine Radar Reflectors on the Market" (Quinetiq report.)

 

[West Coast]

Hi Robert, I should be back in Troon after next weekend, really want to see over your new boat anyway, take a look at the extras you have inherited then?!

 

[OGITD]

Robert!
Guitar .... Troon! .... sailing!! .... brills!!! .....

 

[robertt]

Hi Robert, I should be back in Troon after next weekend, really want to see over your new boat anyway, take a look at the extras you have inherited then?!

That would be great Simon, thanks

There are lots of little things I need to ask to a knowledgeable sailor!

Look forward to meeting up sometime

Robert

 

[robertt]

Robert!
Guitar .... Troon! .... sailing!! .... brills!!! .....

Right on!
I saw your replies to the Ailsa Craig anchoring post, need to get some advice about that sometime...

 

[lw395]

They are all useless,according to a report which was triggered by the loss of the "Ouzo" in 2007 (?). Plus weight, windage and snags aloft.
However I resignedly haul one up at night,poor viz etc so some busybody can't say anything.
I would dearly like to know what it is in active reflectors like Sea-me's etc which makes them worth £500,I asked the guy and he went massively cagey on me,which suggests they just contain a 50p chip from China unless anyone knows different!
"Performance of Marine Radar Reflectors on the Market" (Quinetiq report.)

That report really said that none of them was ideal.
However an octahedral is a whole lot better than nothing.
You will commonly see them used on marks, poles, etc etc.
That's because they work.
They don't quite meet the spec, but that little bit of aluminium origami has about the same echo as a Boeing 747.

It also means that you have done your duty according to SOLAS so are less likely to be held to blame FWIW.

 

[lw395]

Throw the reflector overboard- they are a waste of space..

Think about it: if it's at all rough your great big chunk of aluminium mast and spreaders is going to be gyrating about a fair bit- making shapes that will reflect any radar beams.( kind of similar to the shapes of that stupid little reflector clanging about up your mast) If it's flat calm then that great big slab of aluminium mast is going to be ..... reflecting radar beams. So is your engine. And all that nice, round shiny stainless steel all over your deck and spray hood.

That's utter drivel.
Dangerous drivel at that.
The mast does reflect radar quite well, but being linear it tends to reflect a signal symmetrical to the angle of incidence. That means if you are heeling it will be reflected up or down. In a flat calm, it may be deceptively effective. But it's still a pretty big mast that reflects as strongly as an octahedral.
The other stuff will be pretty much lost in the sea clutter.

Height matters, particularly at close quarters.

If an octahedral is not good enough for you, perhaps an active reflector makes sense.

 

[lw395]

Octahedral radar reflectors need to be hoisted in the 'rain-catching' position to be at all effective - that means one of the 'bowls' must be pointing upwards (so that it would fill with rain!). Most are not supplied with the right holes in the right position to be able to do this so you may have to rig up your own bridle. Hoisted pointy end up these reflectors are next to useless.

.......

That's not entirely true. The catch rain position just has the best compromise of a fairly uniform echoing area. Pointy end up, they have a different characteristic with worse 'nulls', but you probably need your yacht to be set in concrete for that to matter in reality.
Put it this way, if it got foggy and I could only hoist it pointy end up, I would still get it up there sharpish rather than looking for a drill.

 

[uxb]

That's utter drivel.
Dangerous drivel at that.
The mast does reflect radar quite well, but being linear it tends to reflect a signal symmetrical to the angle of incidence. That means if you are heeling it will be reflected up or down. In a flat calm, it may be deceptively effective. But it's still a pretty big mast that reflects as strongly as an octahedral.
The other stuff will be pretty much lost in the sea clutter.

Height matters, particularly at close quarters.

If an octahedral is not good enough for you, perhaps an active reflector makes sense.

Silly little yotty radar reflectors only make sense to those who profit from selling them . I suppose they may provide a grain of comfort for anyone unfortunate enough to be caught out in fog, near shipping with no radar if their own.

 

[VicS]

Can someone lend a hand with advice please?

I have an octahedral aluminium type radar reflector that was in a locker when I bought my boat but am not really sure where or how to hoist/position it. I suppose the higher the better. I have read that it can be hoisted on the backstay but I'm not really sure how to do that. I understand that many, eg Firdell blipper types are attached to the mast.

I also wonder about how and where to hoist day shapes eg cone for motor sailing and ball for anchoring. Again I inherited these with the boat and they are the fold flat sort.

There are little halyards (not sure if wrong terminology as nothing to do with the sails) coming down from the spreaders but these are of very thin string, are these just for pennants and burgees? I hoisted the radar reflector on one but it just turned round and around and got all twisted up in a mess!

Thanks for any pointers

Place your assmbled radar reflector on a table. It is now in the "correct" raincatching orientation

Mine is fixed between twin backstays (in the correct orientation). I think it would be difficult to fit it to a single backstay. A bracket at the mast head may be an option to consider but hoisted by a ( stronger) flag halyard to one of the crosstrees is a simple solution. Usually possible to rig something to stop it spinning

You might like to raed the Qinetiq report on reflectors produced in the wake of the Ouzo incident http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/Radar reflectors report.pdf

You might decide to buy a better reflector than the octahedral one or even a "Radar Target enhancer"

 

[VicS]

Silly little yotty radar reflectors only make sense to those who profit from selling them . I suppose they may provide a grain of comfort for anyone unfortunate enough to be caught out in fog, near shipping with no radar if their own.

Not every one has pots of money to throw around on items like radar or fecking great yachts on which to fit it.

some of us only have silly little yots and a meagre pension on which to run them.

If you have no worthwhile contributions to make go watch the royal baby stuff !

 

[uxb]

Not every one has pots of money to throw around on items like radar or fecking great yachts on which to fit it.

some of us only have silly little yots and a meagre pension on which to run them.

If you have no worthwhile contributions to make go watch the royal baby stuff !

I don't have radar , nor a big flash boat, nor a big budget to run it. I also don't waste money on stupid gimmicks that don't work.
I also try to avoid fog.

And people like you.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

Throw the reflector overboard- they are a waste of space..

Think about it: if it's at all rough your great big chunk of aluminium mast and spreaders is going to be gyrating about a fair bit- making shapes that will reflect any radar beams.( kind of similar to the shapes of that stupid little reflector clanging about up your mast) If it's flat calm then that great big slab of aluminium mast is going to be ..... reflecting radar beams. So is your engine. And all that nice, round shiny stainless steel all over your deck and spray hood.

An aluminium mast, being round(ish), will reflect most of the radar beam away from the viewing radar. The reflective area that the viewer will see, if any, will be very small indeed.

 

[uxb]

An aluminium mast, being round(ish), will reflect most of the radar beam away from the viewing radar. The reflective area that the viewer will see, if any, will be very small indeed.

My mast ( and the two boats before it) has a fairly flat profile and will be moving around all over the place- as with the flat spreaders that will present all sorts of different angles to any radar beam when the boat is moving around sailing. When motoring in flat calm seas there is a massive chunk of metal sticking up in the air. More than a wee yottie radar reflector.

Anyway, it works for me and I haven't been run down in fog yet. One day I will buy myself a radar, as I promise myself I will do every time I've been caught out in for- most feverently when we were stuck in the nasty stuff for 36 hours in the western approaches.

I was in some thick fog last week as it happens and could hear the wee 'tooooot' of those 'Frog Horn' things every now and again. I don't currently carry one of them either as they are so weedy that anything thats going to be dangerous to me- say a fishing boat and bigger- is going to be steered from inside a wheel house and wouldn't be heard. I also reconn that anything 'commercial' will not have any kind of decent lookout, unlike us yotties who will mostly be creeping along at tickover straining their eyes and ears. I'm going to get one though as they are useful for a load of reasons. As I was single handing, a radar wouldn't have been a whole lot of use to me as instead of being outside where I could see and hear a lot better, I'd have been down below a lot of the time and that would make me uncomfortable in fog.

 

[prv]

I was in some thick fog last week as it happens and could hear the wee 'tooooot' of those 'Frog Horn' things every now and again. I don't currently carry one of them either as they are so weedy that anything thats going to be dangerous to me- say a fishing boat and bigger- is going to be steered from inside a wheel house and wouldn't be heard.

Some ships have microphones to relay external sound into the enclosed bridge for this reason. Although I don't know how common these systems are and whether they're generally used - I believe the Seacat that killed those French fishermen last year was fitted with microphones but the system was turned off while the bridge crew chatted about tits and drugs.

I also reconn that anything 'commercial' will not have any kind of decent lookout

I think that's unfair to the majority of merchant mariners, most of whom will be doing their best. But they will be concentrating very much on their radar - even in fine weather, the watch officers I've observed on sail-training ships make extensive use of radar (they have us amateurs up on deck managing the visual lookout). This is why it's important to be a decent radar target. One day when I can afford it, I plan to get an active target enhancer to make sure I'm seen.

As I was single handing, a radar wouldn't have been a whole lot of use to me as instead of being outside where I could see and hear a lot better, I'd have been down below a lot of the time

If you often sail singlehanded (and even if you don't), why would you mount the radar display in the cabin? That's like putting the steering wheel in the front seat and the gearstick in the back. It was necessary once upon a time because the electronics were vulnerable to rain and spray, but practically all new instruments (except some from NASA) are now rated for complete submersion.

Pete

 

[uxb]

If you often sail singlehanded (and even if you don't), why would you mount the radar display in the cabin? That's like putting the steering wheel in the front seat and the gearstick in the back. It was necessary once upon a time because the electronics were vulnerable to rain and spray, but practically all new instruments (except some from NASA) are now rated for complete submersion.

Pete

'Cos it's a deck saloon boat..