When should I update my electronic charts?

[KCS]

Electronics are still classed as an AID to Navigation and not 100% Accurate even the producers say this!

Yes it does happen I had a customer who's electronics went on him whilst in fog he had no paper back up and had to get help from coastguard/RNLI

He came in the next day and bought some paper charts. He had electronics galore but it went tits up.

The paper charts won't let you see through the Fog but if the gadgets do fail as they can do and that has happened to many sea goers at least you can still plot with paper it's not going crash on you etc etc

Anyways it's the same old discussion day in day out with this subject.

There just happens to be a reason why paper is a carriage requirement on board commercial and passenger carrying vessels despite having state of the art electronics

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The relevant bit is contained in the Marine Insurance Act 1906 sec 39(5) which excludes liability if the ship is sent to sea in an unseaworthy condition with the privity of the assured.

Basic rule of insurance = Maximum premium, minimum pay out.

If the boat/ship is worth enough, claim large enough then your claim is at risk if you haven't followed the basic rules of seamanship.

A claim to recall. There was a bulk carrier dragged it's anchor over a pipe line off the coast near Redcar. They were banned from limiting their liability as the charts had not been corrected and the chart in use was many years out of date, but it was the Captain's favourite

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Cheers for that. I didn't know about the Marine Insurance Act until then /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[homa]

chart corrections

For the record
At work we update the electronic and paper charts once per week. With additional temporary corrections as/when they come through.
On my own yacht, electronic charts - once per year. I'm normally too lazy to correct the paper charts so buy a new set for the area I intend to holiday.

 

[moody1]

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I've emailed another one today and waiting for their response to this very question.

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My only comment here is having now emailed the Broker. who will now pass on to the Underwriters - maybe another item added to the list of Claim voiders.
Unfortunately in our experience, hubby and I have seen too many times Non-contributory factors used by Underwriters to squirm out of claims. Arguments to the fact that item is non-contributory usually fails to sway the decision. It goes for non-marine as well as marine claims.
It used to be accepted that it was incumbent on Underwriter to prove mis-claim to get out of it, but an apparent turn-around has been evident for some years now. Not only that but the number of underwriters against brokers / insurance co's is limited. Meaning that asking one broker will often mean him talking to same underwriter who's covering a number of other co's.

So question. If I correct my charts based on the lesser frequent Small Folio NtM's instead of the weekly, and I have an accident. It's found that weekly NtM's highlighted a correction that may have a bearing on the matter, but Small Folio corrections are still not out with it. Will Insurance Co. now void the claim ?
Let's take it another step further and make the correction a Non-contributory one. What now - given that underwriters are always looking to keep their money and void claims ?
If any do not accept Underwriters are that way inclined, why do they employ Loss Adjustors and we have to seek assistance from Loss Assessors ?

Given the field on Insurance and its manipulations, I am not inclined to assist Underwriters / Brokers in finding more ways to null and void claims.

To KCS - I mean the post here to be in nicest possible way and not to start an argument.

 

[ChrisE]

Sorry KCS, I'd missed the fact you were a chart agent, so you may have an interest in chart sales /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif. LIke moody1 not trying to start an argument, merely stating a point of view.

 

[KCS]

As for emailing the broker. You want proof of cases you can't ask for something then have a go at someone trying to get proof or find facts out so the right information is told not just hearsay.

Right I don't know how it works with correcting charts yourself and how that will affect the your insurance if not kept up to date weekly

Especially if you aren't qualified in correcting charts. (So forgive me on that lol)

From my point of things. My clients from Super Yachts and Ships to Local Yachts are covered as they have the current year stamp showing they have been up to date that.

As long as my client has my stamp or another chart agents stamp saying it's been corrected that year this meets carriage requirements with MCA and Solas.

This keeps everyone needed to be kept happy, happy.

As for correcting yourself using the leisure NTM's the information is taken from the notice to mariner that they feel is essential to smaller boats and the stuff that won't affect the smaller boats they don't put in the NTM. So the NTM for that folio is only released when the next lot of corrections that have been released affect that folio. If there is no corrections to that folio can't release anything.

You should keep an eye on the T & P notices as these won't be put in the corrections. As they are only temporary and prelimary and are still very important to keep an eye on.

If in doubt just look at the full NTM instead it's free also on the web.


I understand about not being inclined to assist brokers and underwriters. I hate the tax man just as much lol But then on the other hand if people played the rules insurance brokers/underwriters can't void the insurance if every criteria they have is met I suppose

But I have seen some terrible chart correction in my time very dangerous infact. So much so it was quite scarey.

This is my personal experience and it's a for ever going round in circles argument discussion. I and others in my industry have with local/small boat owners.

Moody1 It's fine. I have this same discussion all the time and it's one that goes round and round in circles. I don't take anything to heart what is said on here as it's the internet and it an be full of keyboard warriors who like to argue. I know sometimes things can be taken the wrong way in the internet very easily.
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Sorry KCS, I'd missed the fact you were a chart agent, so you may have an interest in chart sales

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I'm only here trying to help and not going out to get business. Like other people in the parts of the industry when passing on information or recommendations don't always mean they are touting for business. Plus I'm talking more about updating charts than chart sales

I just hope what I write makes some sense to someone lol /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif Sooner or later there will be no need for paper versions of charts and it will be just electronics. but that's not for a long time yet it's predicted

 

[moody1]

Points taken and fair enough. My comment about emailing brokers was based on asking if they void insurance claims based on uncorrected charts. Not if that they had done so. Slightly different question. That's how I understood your previous postings.
Qualified to correct charts ? Hubby confirms that in no Ticket he took in Merch was there evr any training or qualification in correcting charts. Even when at college through various ticket levels and formal chartwork lessons, still no instruction on this. It was a skill picked up from others on board ship. Including use of hacksaw blade reversed to draw cables, spoon handles with holes drilled for light circles, Rotring pens for corrections, wetr rags to store Rotring nibs in. All these and the correction art learnt from old hands. Hubby still has his own personal chart correction set. all in nice padded zipped case, along with Adm Chart Symbols publication.
As a Chart agent you are also aware that when you send out a chart it is not necessarily right bang up to date - it is up to date as to time you send it out. Hubby recalls receiving on many occasions new charts from accredited agents around the world that required going back through old NtM's and bring up to date himself. I don't say you are like that, but some UK well known agents were guilty of it at times.

No-one in their right mind is against safe and proper execution of responsibilities, even those who don't correct charts ? But I'm always wary when people throw in the Insurance angle. I keep wondering how many Ins. people read these forums and could act based on posts ?
Hubby and I despite his extensive sea-going and my yacht experience do not correct all charts and in some cases use recently cancelled if we know the area well. We have annotated, marked some charts with own observations to bring them directly relevant to prevailing. Friends who have similar areas we have passed on those obs.
Finally there are many boats out there that ply the solent and other areas that never carry a chart. Are they now to be outlawed by Ins. co's.
I think many of the questions and opinions now grow out of the increased range and size of boats that come into the leisure world today. Gone are the starter days of pottering around and then moving up in stages as we and others did. A lot of yacht owners are into larger boats at a very early stage and this brings in the chart aspect.
The plotter argument about replacement for paper has railed on for considerable time and appears to be in a limbo state, with ships fitted with dual systems and reduced paper, others with single systems and full paper. It will probably be a long drawn out affair and then suddenly it will happen. Near all HO's are gearing up and involved in S57 / ENC development, UK especially. This can only signal one thing. Electronic is coming home to roost. IMHO

 

[KCS]

Well yes there is a courses in chart correction. The UKHO even run a course.

Even soon according to the UKHO anyone who corrects charts will need to have done the appropriate course to do so.

As a chart supplier my charts are ahead of the current notice to mariners as we have access to NTM's ahead of the game so to speak.

Even if they are only up to date to the current notice to Mariner it shouldn't take a week to get to you especially in the UK. I sent charts out to Vanuatu it took 4 working days charts were still in date when received.

So they won't be out of date. Any chart agent that sells out of date charts are breaking contracts with UKHO

Chart agents themselves will soon be checked on this by auditors from the UKHO so cases where charts aren't corrected properly or being sold no up to date will no longer happen. Yes I've come across some occasions this has happened but it shouldn't be a regular thing.

The problem with learning from old hands as you put doesn't mean they are correctly teaching.

My course was 2 weeks in total to become a full Navigators Yeoman. A proper laid out course not just an old hand passing on knowledge that was passed on to him.

This is the reason it will become mandatory (when not sure yet) just what I've been informed.

I totally agreee electronic charts will be the only form of charts available at some point.

Yes the UKHO launched their new Vector Service in April this year. Soon it will be the only official Vector service out there as others aren't official and they buy their data from elsewhere.

So the world of electronics is already being stepped forward. but paper charts will still be around for a while yet and will eventually phased out.

But until then I'd recommend to have at least some form of back up if only general passage charts just in case. Some people are lucky and never have problems with electronics but others do what ever size vessel.

I hope people don't think I'm pushing for business cos I'm not. Just from experience from my time at sea and in this business their are too many naive (spelling) yachtsman about.

 

[moody1]

But it still remains today that Ships officers (2nd Mates usually) are not formally taught chart correction. It comes in their ability to learn while at sea over years before they take on the Chart folio upkeep.
UKHO may be introducing or have courses for it, but I can't see it being internationally imposed. There are just too many ships officers / cadets out there and too many flag nations involved. Plus of course the lack of UK officers even on UK Flag vessels since UK bcame a FOC.

 

[KCS]

Well they will be auditing all their Chart Agents and Distributors all over the world I know that. If becomes Manditory with the MCA which is the plan I've been told then people will have to do it.

I know ship officers aren't formally taught. I even had to express my concern about one ship officer's attempts at keeping the charts up to date on board before.

His correction was very unsafe when he did attempt and it wasn't the simple leave off a correction number error it was more concerning than that.

And that's what happens when not formally taught properly.

I hope you don't feel I'm having a go?

 

[moody1]

No - no problem. Hubby prided himself on his ability to chart correct. But was aghast at later juniors he saw with biros' and various scrawling corrections onto charts. But as he says - that came with changing crews and possibly standards.
One area that he really objected to was the Combined ticket where Engineers then stood on the bridge, and vice versa. Losing as he maintains that inbuilt sense that develops over years.
As you know the electronic era is changing that. No longer tracings mailed out, but download from web. Electronic charts can be auto corrected via sat-link or CD's sent out to do the job. So you see I may not be of the ships as Hubby, but I do understand a bit about it /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif