Jamesuk
Active member
I would reply "Yes but i am racing too... Back to the pub for last orders"
But i enjoy the banter. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
But i enjoy the banter. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
When does Starboard tack give way to Port tack?
- Thread starter Athene V30
- Start date
snooks
Active member
RRS
If the boat was indeed racing she must still comply with the col regs.
From the RRS (Racing Rules of Sailing)
"The rules of Part 2 apply between boats that are sailing in or near the racing area and intend to race, are racing, or have been racing. However, a boat not racing shall not be penalized for breaking one of these rules, except rule 22.1. When a boat sailing under these rules meets a vessel that is not, she shall comply with the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea (IRPCAS) or government right-of-way rules. However, an alleged breach of those rules shall not be grounds for a protest except by the race committee or protest committee."
If the boat was indeed racing she must still comply with the col regs.
From the RRS (Racing Rules of Sailing)
"The rules of Part 2 apply between boats that are sailing in or near the racing area and intend to race, are racing, or have been racing. However, a boat not racing shall not be penalized for breaking one of these rules, except rule 22.1. When a boat sailing under these rules meets a vessel that is not, she shall comply with the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea (IRPCAS) or government right-of-way rules. However, an alleged breach of those rules shall not be grounds for a protest except by the race committee or protest committee."
fflakey
New member
Re: RRS
Speak to the club concerned.
It shouldn't be a hail of 'WE'RE RACING!', it should be a hail of 'We're racing, do you mind giving way?'.
Most sensible people will give a friendly wave, admire the racing close up and receive a sincere thank you from the boats concerned
Speak to the club concerned.
It shouldn't be a hail of 'WE'RE RACING!', it should be a hail of 'We're racing, do you mind giving way?'.
Most sensible people will give a friendly wave, admire the racing close up and receive a sincere thank you from the boats concerned
jb2006
New member
I agree - report them to the club as in breach of the RRS and demand the committee protest them - when I am racing I try to work out who is not racing (boats going the wrong way are pretty obvious - boats flying an ensign rather than a pennant etc less so) and apply the IRPCS - if not racing I try to avoid obstructing those who are but it's not always possible.
rwoofer
Active member
Re: RRS
Personally I do try to give way to racing boats at all times, because it usually isn't much of an inconvenience to me, whereas loosing places for them does affect race results. I've always found that most people did the same for me when I used to race.
It generally not the fault of individuals as to where the cause is laid, it is the club itself. They should avoid a race course anywhere that encounters heavy traffic eg. entrance to harbours. I would raise the issue with the club and advise them to organise their races somewhere less busy.
Personally I do try to give way to racing boats at all times, because it usually isn't much of an inconvenience to me, whereas loosing places for them does affect race results. I've always found that most people did the same for me when I used to race.
It generally not the fault of individuals as to where the cause is laid, it is the club itself. They should avoid a race course anywhere that encounters heavy traffic eg. entrance to harbours. I would raise the issue with the club and advise them to organise their races somewhere less busy.
Lakesailor
New member
Re: RRS
I agree with what you say. On Windymere the racing marks are permanent fixtures and you know where they are going, generally. I would never try to cross a racing fleet, but leave them room at a mark and pass downwind.
But someone bearing down on you without any ID and not obviously part of the fleet is a different matter. I get more problems with RYA training boats like that.
They may as well shout "we're practicing leaving a jetty", but I thought the idea was you looked about before setting off, under power, across a sailing boat's course.
I agree with what you say. On Windymere the racing marks are permanent fixtures and you know where they are going, generally. I would never try to cross a racing fleet, but leave them room at a mark and pass downwind.
But someone bearing down on you without any ID and not obviously part of the fleet is a different matter. I get more problems with RYA training boats like that.
They may as well shout "we're practicing leaving a jetty", but I thought the idea was you looked about before setting off, under power, across a sailing boat's course.
TheBoatman
New member
[ QUOTE ]
Reply is "What the F*** has that got to do with it?". Colregs override racing rules.
[/ QUOTE ]
A statement I've often shouted to "racers" in the past.
I'm going to put on my pedantic hat here re Colregs override racing rules.
Nope that's not exactly true!
What is a more accurate statement (IMHO) is that the RRS can never override the Colregs - something that most racers will never understand.
I once asked a group of 20+ racers this question.
When do the ColRegs apply?
a) Only during daylight.
b) Only after dark.
c) always.
13 went for (c) the rest were a mixture of a & b.
So from that I gathered that if I were confronted with a "racer" there was a near 33% chance that the driver had no idea of what the ColRegs were and I definitely couldn't rely on him/her doing the right thing.
Peter.
BTW - It didn't stop me throwing a good few fecks into them!
Reply is "What the F*** has that got to do with it?". Colregs override racing rules.
[/ QUOTE ]
A statement I've often shouted to "racers" in the past.
I'm going to put on my pedantic hat here re Colregs override racing rules.
Nope that's not exactly true!
What is a more accurate statement (IMHO) is that the RRS can never override the Colregs - something that most racers will never understand.
I once asked a group of 20+ racers this question.
When do the ColRegs apply?
a) Only during daylight.
b) Only after dark.
c) always.
13 went for (c) the rest were a mixture of a & b.
So from that I gathered that if I were confronted with a "racer" there was a near 33% chance that the driver had no idea of what the ColRegs were and I definitely couldn't rely on him/her doing the right thing.
Peter.
BTW - It didn't stop me throwing a good few fecks into them!
Athene V30
Active member
Re: RRS
As already stated I too would normally avoid a racing fleet - however on this occasion I could not identify the large boat in amongst a group of much smaller boats as racing.
As to race marks - they were on a windward leg in a river - we all have to use the same water!
As already stated I too would normally avoid a racing fleet - however on this occasion I could not identify the large boat in amongst a group of much smaller boats as racing.
As to race marks - they were on a windward leg in a river - we all have to use the same water!
Birdseye
Well-known member
Re: RRS
You've all missed the obvious key fact - "helms woman "
Flipper is a chap and therefor wrong, whatever tack he was on. He needs to apologise, buy a bunch of flowers and keep out of the way for a while. As usual. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
You've all missed the obvious key fact - "helms woman "
Flipper is a chap and therefor wrong, whatever tack he was on. He needs to apologise, buy a bunch of flowers and keep out of the way for a while. As usual. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
davel
Active member
[ QUOTE ]
To answer the question in your header: the starboard tack boat gves way if the starboard tack boat is overtaking the port tack boat.
[/ QUOTE ]
Don't think I've heard this one before. How do you determine you're overtaking?? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
To answer the question in your header: the starboard tack boat gves way if the starboard tack boat is overtaking the port tack boat.
[/ QUOTE ]
Don't think I've heard this one before. How do you determine you're overtaking?? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
l'escargot
New member
To be more pedantic, Racing Rules only apply to those taking part in the race. They have no authority whatsoever over those not racing. So to those not racing, Colregs always overide Racing Rules.
mel80
New member
[ QUOTE ]
How do you determine you're overtaking??
[/ QUOTE ]
If you are approaching the other boat from more than 22.5 degrees abaft of his beam.
How do you determine you're overtaking??
[/ QUOTE ]
If you are approaching the other boat from more than 22.5 degrees abaft of his beam.
l'escargot
New member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
To answer the question in your header: the starboard tack boat gves way if the starboard tack boat is overtaking the port tack boat.
[/ QUOTE ]
Don't think I've heard this one before. How do you determine you're overtaking?? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Apply Rule 13 (b) & (c)
[ QUOTE ]
To answer the question in your header: the starboard tack boat gves way if the starboard tack boat is overtaking the port tack boat.
[/ QUOTE ]
Don't think I've heard this one before. How do you determine you're overtaking?? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Apply Rule 13 (b) & (c)
davel
Active member
Got it. Thanks!
Daedelus
Well-known member
Unusual racing experiences
We were in the club's very laid back annual race (little or no wind as ever) were last by a long way and were only keeping going out of a spirit of perseverence (bloody mindedness) when a dayboat bellowed at us that he was racing. We were stand on vessel & I replied that so were we racing but altered course slightly to reassure him - I don't think either of us were in any danger of colliding as he was rounding the mark that we were hiding behind until a container ship had cleared the deep water channel. He may have been mislead about our racing as were having afternoon tea & cake at the time.
We finally get in to discover that we missed a place on handicap by one minute. I wish I'd just said I'm racing too, and carried on!
The second incident occurred when we were with 2 other club boats and were all crossing the North Channel with a large vessel coming out of Southampton ahead of us. There was no way we could have hit him - little wind and he was going quite well - when a passing yacht bellowed "you are standing into danger" and the leeward boats took his word for it & promptly tacked at us. We gybed around to avoid them and carried on, but lost ground to the leaders. Can I protest a passing yacht who has nothing to do with the race but interferes with it?
We were in the club's very laid back annual race (little or no wind as ever) were last by a long way and were only keeping going out of a spirit of perseverence (bloody mindedness) when a dayboat bellowed at us that he was racing. We were stand on vessel & I replied that so were we racing but altered course slightly to reassure him - I don't think either of us were in any danger of colliding as he was rounding the mark that we were hiding behind until a container ship had cleared the deep water channel. He may have been mislead about our racing as were having afternoon tea & cake at the time.
We finally get in to discover that we missed a place on handicap by one minute. I wish I'd just said I'm racing too, and carried on!
The second incident occurred when we were with 2 other club boats and were all crossing the North Channel with a large vessel coming out of Southampton ahead of us. There was no way we could have hit him - little wind and he was going quite well - when a passing yacht bellowed "you are standing into danger" and the leeward boats took his word for it & promptly tacked at us. We gybed around to avoid them and carried on, but lost ground to the leaders. Can I protest a passing yacht who has nothing to do with the race but interferes with it?
cliffordpope
New member
Isn't there some rule that a close hauled boat, even on the port tack, may call for water from a running or reaching boat, even on the starboard tack, in order to have room to manoeuvre? I know that wasn't so in this case, but can it be true?
I grew up sailing on the Broads, and the port/starboard tack rules were generally assumed to apply to close-hauled boats, not necessarily all points of sailing.
A reaching or running boat on the starboard tack did not have the right to force a port tacking close hauled boat into the bank.
Am I imagining this, or do/did different rules apply on rivers?
I grew up sailing on the Broads, and the port/starboard tack rules were generally assumed to apply to close-hauled boats, not necessarily all points of sailing.
A reaching or running boat on the starboard tack did not have the right to force a port tacking close hauled boat into the bank.
Am I imagining this, or do/did different rules apply on rivers?
dom
Well-known member
This type of behaviour is simply not acceptable. You should without doubt report them to the race committee of their club and ask the club for a written response. If you are still not happy, copy all correspondence to the harbourmaster.
These idiots do not represent racing sailors generally and should be stopped before they cause a serious accident.
These idiots do not represent racing sailors generally and should be stopped before they cause a serious accident.
G
Guest
Guest
Rule 12(a) of IRPCS sez:
[ QUOTE ]
When two sailing ships are approaching one another, so as to involve risk of collision, one of them shall keep out of the way of the other as follows:
(i) when each has the wind on a different side, the vessel which has the wind on the port side shall keep out of the way of the other;
(ii) when both have the wind on the same side, the vessel which is to windward shall keep out of the way of the vessel which is to leeward;
(iii) if a vessel with the wind on the port side sees a vessel to windward and cannot determine with certainty whether the other vessel has the wind on the port or on the starboard side, she shall keep out of the way of the other
[/ QUOTE ]
So port gives way to starboard even when one is upwind of the other. But you can't force another boat into the river bank because of Rule 18(b)(ii) which sez:
[ QUOTE ]
A sailing vessel underway shall keep out of the way of:
(i) a vessel not under command;
(ii) a vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre;
(iii) a vessel engaged in fishing.
[/ QUOTE ]
As already mentioned, another overriding rule is that overtaking vessel has to keep out of the way of the boat she's overtaking, whatever tacks they're on. In fact for that matter a sailing boat has to keep out of the way of a motor boat if she's overtaking it (note use of 'she' and 'it' /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif). And a sailing boat can't force a motor boat into the bank either because of the 18(b)(ii) quoted above.
[ QUOTE ]
When two sailing ships are approaching one another, so as to involve risk of collision, one of them shall keep out of the way of the other as follows:
(i) when each has the wind on a different side, the vessel which has the wind on the port side shall keep out of the way of the other;
(ii) when both have the wind on the same side, the vessel which is to windward shall keep out of the way of the vessel which is to leeward;
(iii) if a vessel with the wind on the port side sees a vessel to windward and cannot determine with certainty whether the other vessel has the wind on the port or on the starboard side, she shall keep out of the way of the other
[/ QUOTE ]
So port gives way to starboard even when one is upwind of the other. But you can't force another boat into the river bank because of Rule 18(b)(ii) which sez:
[ QUOTE ]
A sailing vessel underway shall keep out of the way of:
(i) a vessel not under command;
(ii) a vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre;
(iii) a vessel engaged in fishing.
[/ QUOTE ]
As already mentioned, another overriding rule is that overtaking vessel has to keep out of the way of the boat she's overtaking, whatever tacks they're on. In fact for that matter a sailing boat has to keep out of the way of a motor boat if she's overtaking it (note use of 'she' and 'it' /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif). And a sailing boat can't force a motor boat into the bank either because of the 18(b)(ii) quoted above.
waterboy
New member
On this forum, several years back, someone gave this;
To "Can't you see I'm racing?" or some such remark, the only reply is;
"I was wondering about that but as you ignored that last windshift, I decided you couldn't be".
Cheers
To "Can't you see I'm racing?" or some such remark, the only reply is;
"I was wondering about that but as you ignored that last windshift, I decided you couldn't be".
Cheers
peterb
New member
[ QUOTE ]
So port gives way to starboard even when one is upwind of the other. But you can't force another boat into the river bank because of Rule 18(b)(ii) which sez:
[ QUOTE ]
A sailing vessel underway shall keep out of the way of:
(i) a vessel not under command;
(ii) a vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre;
(iii) a vessel engaged in fishing.
[/ QUOTE ]
As already mentioned, another overriding rule is that overtaking vessel has to keep out of the way of the boat she's overtaking, whatever tacks they're on. In fact for that matter a sailing boat has to keep out of the way of a motor boat if she's overtaking it (note use of 'she' and 'it' /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif). And a sailing boat can't force a motor boat into the bank either because of the 18(b)(ii) quoted above.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think you need to study Rule 3(g). A vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre is defined as one which is restricted by virtue of the nature of her work, e.g. dredging or pipe-laying. You could possibly be covered under "constrained by draught" (Rule 3(h)), but that can only be applied to power vessels. But for any vessel to be covered by "constrained by draught" , under Rule 18(d)(i) she must be exhibiting the signals of Rule 28, and very few small boats carry cylinders or three red lights.
So port gives way to starboard even when one is upwind of the other. But you can't force another boat into the river bank because of Rule 18(b)(ii) which sez:
[ QUOTE ]
A sailing vessel underway shall keep out of the way of:
(i) a vessel not under command;
(ii) a vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre;
(iii) a vessel engaged in fishing.
[/ QUOTE ]
As already mentioned, another overriding rule is that overtaking vessel has to keep out of the way of the boat she's overtaking, whatever tacks they're on. In fact for that matter a sailing boat has to keep out of the way of a motor boat if she's overtaking it (note use of 'she' and 'it' /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif). And a sailing boat can't force a motor boat into the bank either because of the 18(b)(ii) quoted above.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think you need to study Rule 3(g). A vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre is defined as one which is restricted by virtue of the nature of her work, e.g. dredging or pipe-laying. You could possibly be covered under "constrained by draught" (Rule 3(h)), but that can only be applied to power vessels. But for any vessel to be covered by "constrained by draught" , under Rule 18(d)(i) she must be exhibiting the signals of Rule 28, and very few small boats carry cylinders or three red lights.