When a boat gets to more than 24 metres what happens .....

[Interested_kiwi]

Kiwi law may be different (though I wd be surprised) but so far as uk law is concerned you are not correct. With one exception, as soon as you get to 24m LLL you have manning requirements under U.K. law and many others. If the boat is in pleasure use the requirements are lighter than for commercial use but there are still manning requirements (msn1802) and you couldn't "husband and wife" the boat.

The one exception is if the boat is <80 grt but nearly all boats on the market will exceed 80grt if they are 24m LLL. Rules are also tougher if over 3000kw

​

Okay. . fair enough you might be right on that.

In New Zealand, which is not necessarily useful in this case, the minimum requirements are only that a captain or Skipper or an owner may not permit a boat to be used in a reckless fashion.

That includes using a boat with not enough crew.... But arguably a boat that operates was not enough crew and has no incident was not necessarily operators in a reckless fashion... But it's always best to be a little bit conservative!

Good to know what the rules in Europe are as it's always been curious to me as to watch the exact difference is between a 24m boat and anything a bit bigger...

So I suppose I am in the same boat as Jeremy asking the same question!

 

[BartW]

I suppose that is bound to be true also for the original papers of BA... BartW, do you still have a copy of her "Licenza di abilitazione alla navigazione"?

we have a lot of copy's from Original paperwork,
we kept it all just in case
but its all in Italian, and didn't look at it in detail the last few years...
ao there was :
the bleu book,
the nulla ... doc
and also some docs from the time BA was Ital commercial reg iirc.

 

[jrudge]

Kiwi law may be different (though I wd be surprised) but so far as uk law is concerned you are not correct. With one exception, as soon as you get to 24m LLL you have manning requirements under U.K. law and many others. If the boat is in pleasure use the requirements are lighter than for commercial use but there are still manning requirements (msn1802) and you couldn't "husband and wife" the boat.

The one exception is if the boat is <80 grt but nearly all boats on the market will exceed 80grt if they are 24m LLL. Rules are also tougher if over 3000kw

​

Googling MSN 1802 I found this

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/503346/MSN_1858.pdf

In brief summary the master needs the correct ticket ( depends on how far from shore) and then a Master, Chief Mate and Officer of the Watch. The qualifications of each against depend on boat size and distance from shore.

So three people - acting as crew - with between 2 and 3 of them formally qualified depending on size / distance from shore.

I wasn't going to do it anyway ... but now i defiantly wont!

 

[alant]

Hi Jeremy!

I believe nearly nothing changes. There are some antifouling systems that can not be used on small boats.

Safe Manning certificates are only required for commercially certified vessels... You could have a 200m barge, and no safe manning requirements, if it was not in commercial use.

24m is below a bunch of paperwork thresholds, where it's as essentially a giant kayak... And above requires record keeping and MARPOL compliance... I think. I used to know more.

If you're a bit serious, I can Google it for you..?

You might need to advise VTS if entering or transiting waters controlled by certain harbour authorities like Southampton.

 

[Interested_kiwi]

Googling MSN 1802 I found this

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/503346/MSN_1858.pdf

In brief summary the master needs the correct ticket ( depends on how far from shore) and then a Master, Chief Mate and Officer of the Watch. The qualifications of each against depend on boat size and distance from shore.

So three people - acting as crew - with between 2 and 3 of them formally qualified depending on size / distance from shore.

I wasn't going to do it anyway ... but now i defiantly wont!

You might need to advise VTS if entering or transiting waters controlled by certain harbour authorities like Southampton.

Also, from that very helpful attachment (thanks Jeremy!)

"2.2 The Master (code vessels less than 200 GT) OOW (yachts less than 500 GT) Certificates of Competency are not mandatory. Seafarers serving in UK code vessels using MCA-recognised RYA/IYT qualifications have found that some overseas Administrations do not recognise those
qualifications. To overcome this problem, holders of an RYA Yachtmaster Offshore, an RYA Yachtmaster Ocean, IYT Master of Yachts Limited and an IYT Master of Yachts Unlimited certificates may apply to upgrade to Master (code vessels less than 200 GT) OOW (yachts less than 500 GT) Certificates of Competency on a voluntary basis."

 

[Bouba]

I think, according to my research, that with my Extension Hauturier permit I can skipper any ship or boat of any length or any power, day or night and any distance.
I assume, but don’t know, it excludes commercial use.

 

[Portofino]

I think, according to my research, that with my Extension Hauturier permit I can skipper any ship or boat of any length or any power, day or night and any distance.
I assume, but don’t know, it excludes commercial use.

Well spotted
It’s looks like they have lifted the L restrictions which was previously 24M - not sure which definition, that’s maybe why they binned it ?
So me n thee are ok
Being saying this for years but fallen on deaf ears on this forum regarding which tickets to get for Med use .

There no Hp restrictions either .
Obviously common sense prevails,but nice to know we ( husband n wife ) can sail away in what we like ,or turned around take our fancy at everything( within reason @ boat shows ) without worrying about a glass ceiling re L -

 

[jfm]

I think, according to my research, that with my Extension Hauturier permit I can skipper any ship or boat of any length or any power, day or night and any distance.
I assume, but don’t know, it excludes commercial use.

Well spotted
It’s looks like they have lifted the L restrictions which was previously 24M - not sure which definition, that’s maybe why they binned it ?
So me n thee are ok
Being saying this for years but fallen on deaf ears on this forum regarding which tickets to get for Med use .

There no Hp restrictions either .
Obviously common sense prevails,but nice to know we ( husband n wife ) can sail away in what we like ,or turned around take our fancy at everything( within reason @ boat shows ) without worrying about a glass ceiling re L -

You are mixing up two separate things. That licence may permit you to be the skipper of a large boat, but there are separate laws dictating the minimum manning requirements of boats >24m. Thus, while you may not be guilty of the offence of skippering a large boat without the correct skipper qualifications, you may still be committing the quite separate offence of owning or skippering a large boat without sufficient crew to man it according to the law. I could have a licence to captain an Airbus A380 but it would still be unlawful to fly it without a suitably qualified co pilot.

 

[MrB]

So is there a place/website that will give you the information on how many crew you will need for a non-commercial yacht above 24m but still rated as <24 ? Won't the husband/wife combo and kids count as crew if they have a few tickets, yacht master offshore, ICC, day skipper etc?? :ambivalence:

 

[Bouba]

You are mixing up two separate things. That licence may permit you to be the skipper of a large boat, but there are separate laws dictating the minimum manning requirements of boats >24m. Thus, while you may not be guilty of the offence of skippering a large boat without the correct skipper qualifications, you may still be committing the quite separate offence of owning or skippering a large boat without sufficient crew to man it according to the law. I could have a licence to captain an Airbus A380 but it would still be unlawful to fly it without a suitably qualified co pilot.

I understand that, it’s just there was a bit of Fred Drift to qualifications

 

[jrudge]

So is there a place/website that will give you the information on how many crew you will need for a non-commercial yacht above 24m but still rated as <24 ? Won't the husband/wife combo and kids count as crew if they have a few tickets, yacht master offshore, ICC, day skipper etc?? :ambivalence:

The doc I linked to gives this and it depends on how far you are from shore and it’s weight.

I think 2 must have the appropriate qualificaton as a minimum.

Bedtime reading.

 

[MrB]

The doc I linked to gives this and it depends on how far you are from shore and it’s weight.

I think 2 must have the appropriate qualificaton as a minimum.

Bedtime reading.

Thanks for that. I only glimpsed it when you first posted it and thought it was for commercial but on a second look it's for private too. I'm printing it out now. :encouragement:

 

[MapisM]

looks like they have lifted the L restrictions which was previously 24M

Did they? Interesting.
We can argue till the hell freezes over about where to draw the line between a rowing inflatable and the QM2, to set a limit above which a license becomes mandatory, but there are two things I'm sure of:
1. Allowing folks to helm 24m mobos (even larger ones actually, courtesy of the silly LLL rule, but let's leave that aside) with no qualification whatsoever was already stupid enough;
2. Removing even such feeble restriction is beyond a joke... :ambivalence:

 

[Portofino]

You are mixing up two separate things. That licence may permit you to be the skipper of a large boat, but there are separate laws dictating the minimum manning requirements of boats >24m. Thus, while you may not be guilty of the offence of skippering a large boat without the correct skipper qualifications, you may still be committing the quite separate offence of owning or skippering a large boat without sufficient crew to man it according to the law. I could have a licence to captain an Airbus A380 but it would still be unlawful to fly it without a suitably qualified co pilot.

Gotcha - thx for the clarity.
Back to min manning requirements as the decider.

How ever , the pic I posted is I think a Benetti “94 “ Delphino which scapes under the LLL of less than 24 m .An extreme example of the nose cone con job .
You would need to be brave to hubby n wife this in a tight berth in a bit of a blow .
I think its all kinda self balancing once @ that level add permanent crew and all that comes with that paperwork/ ticket wise .

https://imgur.com/gallery/BJNva

 

[Portofino]

Did they? Interesting.
We can argue till the hell freezes over about where to draw the line between a rowing inflatable and the QM2, to set a limit above which a license becomes mandatory, but there are two things I'm sure of:
1. Allowing folks to helm 24m mobos (even larger ones actually, courtesy of the silly LLL rule, but let's leave that aside) with no qualification whatsoever was already stupid enough;
2. Removing even such feeble restriction is beyond a joke... :ambivalence:

Eh ?
It is a boat qually - compulsory in Fr for Fr and any open to none Fr tackling the course .
Even jet skiers need it by law - and the higher if regularly going 6 nm off shore .

It’s a right meal ticket for “ Bateaux Ecole s “ - full of young lads eager to jet ski within the law .
Bit like driving schools it’s the Fr water equivalent.
Like your car licence there used to be a size restriction ( Kg,s ) and further test for HGV
So in boaty terms 24 M was the limit for the Fr qually .
That restriction seems to have gone as bouba has pointed out .
I did mine waaay back 2005 and like driving licences the goal posts change as years go by , usually more onerous.
Back then it was a 24 M L limit -

What do IT boaters in IT ( sea ) need to sit exam wise ? And what’s it worth L wise if any ?

 

[jrudge]

Bear in mind that you do need more than a day skipper!

RYA Yachtmaster Offshore,
RYA Yachtmaster Ocean
IYT Master of Yachts Limited
IYT Master of Yachts Unlimited

Are the exemptions. I don't know what you need to do to get them but it will not be a weekend course.

This then allows you to helm ( with crew) 200 tonnes, and only if it is UK registered.

 

[MapisM]

Eh ?
It is a boat qually - compulsory in Fr for Fr and any open to none Fr tackling the course
.......

Hang on, my previous comment was based on my understanding of UK regulation as follows:
- allowing so far to helm boats up to 24m LLL with neither a license nor any kind of qualification;
- recently removing even this 24m restriction, allowing anyone to helm anything (leaving aside possible crew requirements for very large vessels).
Nothing else. But if there's anything I misunderstood, I'm happy to be corrected.

Neither FR nor IT rules have anything to see with what I said previously, but fwiw, in IT you must pass an exam and get a license for anything above 40hp.
But I'm mentioning this only because you asked, not because I think that's the most sensible rule on earth.
I did say that we can discuss where to draw the line till the hell freezes over. What I do consider silly is to have no line at all...!

 

[MrB]

The way i'm reading this is you need as a minimum for a yacht 24m> and less than 200Gt and up to 150nm are two crew, one with YM Offshore and one with YM Coastal. I think the 150nm (from safe haven) would be fine for 95% of pleasure boaters as that gives you a 299nm range to play with between destinations. *

*Based on reading the link jrudge posted (MSN 1858 (M+F)) (Chapter 13. Manning Requirements for Yachts pg.17)

So to me a husband and wife combo with the relevant tickets and a few kids thrown in with competent crew would be fine. Unless of course i'm totally reading this all wrong,

 

[MapisM]

Aha, I see. Apologies for laziness, I didn't read the doc jrudge linked.
Based on PF post #27 I understood that the previous rule for helming boats up 24m (i.e. no requirements/qualifications at all, afaik) was extended to even larger boats.
That chapter 13 makes much more sense than that!

 

[rubberduck]

You are mixing up two separate things. That licence may permit you to be the skipper of a large boat, but there are separate laws dictating the minimum manning requirements of boats >24m. Thus, while you may not be guilty of the offence of skippering a large boat without the correct skipper qualifications, you may still be committing the quite separate offence of owning or skippering a large boat without sufficient crew to man it according to the law. I could have a licence to captain an Airbus A380 but it would still be unlawful to fly it without a suitably qualified co pilot.

Jet plane in build thread to follow ?