What's going on at Discovery yachts?

[pvb]

Machine made vs hand made?

There's certainly a lot of automation involved, which gives unparallelled dimensional accuracy. But there's also a big element of labour involved in the fitout process.

 

[guardian]

A cursory look over at yachtworlds site at comparable boats - HR, Najad etc - begs the question, why would you take on such monstrous levels of depreciation buying new especially given the total ballache this has become for all parties?

 

[Stemar]

It seems to me that the two biggest lessons from this sorry tale are:
1 Delays, especially on a semi-custom boat are highly likely. Walking into the design office halfway through and saying "What about ....?" makes them inevitable, along with cost overruns. Scope creep has killed off many a good, viable project!

2 Think long and hard about going to court. You may have a watertight case - unlike the boat ?, but what's the likelihood of getting paid? The only person who's sure of coming out on top is your lawyer. OK, Bavaria and Janneau are unlikely to fold in the face of a million pound bill, but how many boat builders have the reserves to survive that kind of hit?

 

[ryanroberts]

A cursory look over at yachtworlds site at comparable boats - HR, Najad etc - begs the question, why would you take on such monstrous levels of depreciation buying new especially given the total ballache this has become for all parties?

The cockpit hot tub? Fantasy boat shopping for me would be Boreal / Garcia at that sort of cash.

 

[Bajansailor]

I know that everything is possible in retrospect, but if I was in the shoes of the owner of this vessel, I would have appointed my own project manager / surveyor to oversee the construction. Especially as the owner appears to be a relative 'newbie'.
Not necessarily being in attendance every day, but maybe visiting the yard once a week, and issuing a progress report with photos . The cost of having this extra assurance would be slight in comparison to the cost of the vessel.
The surveyor would also make sure that the boat doesn't leave the yard until all systems are tested to the mutual satisfaction of all concerned.

Yet folk seem to be reluctant to do this - I am reminded of our friend Gludy (remember him?) who commissioned firstly a Trader motor yacht, then a Marlow motor yacht, and then finally a St Francis sailing catamaran.
All three vessels cost in excess of US$ 1 million each, and he claimed to have major problems with every one of them, documenting his concerns extensively on this Forum.
One would have thought that he would have 'cottoned on' that it would be useful to have his own project manager by the time he started on the St Francis cat.

 

[bigwow]

I know that everything is possible in retrospect, but if I was in the shoes of the owner of this vessel, I would have appointed my own project manager / surveyor to oversee the construction. Especially as the owner appears to be a relative 'newbie'.
Not necessarily being in attendance every day, but maybe visiting the yard once a week, and issuing a progress report with photos . The cost of having this extra assurance would be slight in comparison to the cost of the vessel.
The surveyor would also make sure that the boat doesn't leave the yard until all systems are tested to the mutual satisfaction of all concerned.

Yet folk seem to be reluctant to do this - I am reminded of our friend Gludy (remember him?) who commissioned firstly a Trader motor yacht, then a Marlow motor yacht, and then finally a St Francis sailing catamaran. All three vessels cost in excess of US$ 1 million, and he claimed to have major problems with every one of them, documenting his concerns extensively on this Forum. One would have thought that he would have 'cottoned on' that it would be useful to have his own project manager by the time he started on the St Francis cat.

For extra leverage with St Frances Paul started a multihull forum

 

[Bajansailor]

Yes, Paul really applied some heat on St Francis through his Forum Multihulls R Us.
He appeared to be on a vendetta, even claiming that he had extensive delamination in the hull - I went to see the vessel in Grenada at the time on behalf of the Builders, reported no delamination whatsoever, and he went ballistic.
The boat has been for sale since June -
Suliere is now for Sale - St Francis 50 with huge spec

 

[Resolution]

A lot of sense in what you say, Bajansailor. Probably the biggest cause of dispute between yacht buyers and their builders is a lack of experience and understanding on the part of some buyers. Oh alright, and some bad management by the builders or dealers. When I worked for a main dealer we used to love repeat customers because they understood what was offered and what could realistically be done. First time big boat buyers were often very hard work. Just because the yacht cost five times the cost of their Mercedes / BMW / Volvo didn't mean it was built to the same standards of foolproof engineering.
Never met Gludy in business, but from his copious output on these forums he sounded like an absolute horror to do business with.

 

[Daydream believer]

A cursory look over at yachtworlds site at comparable boats - HR, Najad etc - begs the question, why would you take on such monstrous levels of depreciation buying new

Because they can

 

[Joker]

You may have a watertight case - unlike the boat ?, but what's the likelihood of getting paid? The only person who's sure of coming out on top is your lawyer.

100%.

 

[RickMac]

Bye Bye Discovery Yachts 2 (already Pheonixed once)

Hello Discovery Yachts 3 no doubt with all the assets and non of the liabilities.

Who would by a new yacht from these people (or anyone for that matter)

Sadly - we did back in 2010, and had a very similar experience to this chap.

Lest the jokers come out to play as they do with a certain frequency on here (by 'jokers' I mean the fair-weather sailors who all seem to talk a good story at their keyboards from the shelter of their weekend G&T cabins whilst simultaneously hugging the safety of inlets and coastal waters smugly decrying those who venture further afield - with apologies to the serious sailors!) firstly I feel it necessary to lay down some basic credentials, not to brag but simply to underline that I have a vague idea of what I'm talking about here.

I have been sailing since a teenager and now (in my early 50's) am an experienced qualified ocean yachtmaster for just over 15 years, with over 55k nm and 6 Atlantic crossings (2 total sail no engine support) under my lifebelt, so feel I am slightly familiar with matters nautical. Nonetheless, we all learn a little something extra each and every day at sea as you will read!

Enticed to be patriotic and buy British back in 2010 was my first mistake - why oh why did I not get the Hallberg Rassy or Najad that I initially have eyes on??? The second was believing the smooth sales talk and workshop 'veneer' on the yard/factory tour. Also, my diligence could find little recorded negative if at all (then) regarding Northshore build history.

After delivery and a 6 week shakedown period in the Solent/Channel we sailed off (although, interestingly, just before this we did have a disconcerting off-the-record discussion with one of the shop floor workers who had been with them for 10 years who warned of problems to come!).

By the time we were abreast of Plymouth various problems had indeed manifested themselves, by Gibraltar we had a list of over 25 significant faults indicating that the vessel might not be seaworthy and by the Canary Islands we had enough for a book.

Also, do bear in mind that our vessel was designated with Category A OCEAN, which the RCD defines this category in Annex E of their RSG Guidelines 2009 as follows: ‘Designed for extended voyages where conditions may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort scale) and significant wave height of 4 metres and above but excluding abnormal conditions, and vessels largely self-sufficient’.

My close inspection, in the water and on the hard, then revealed numerous serious life-threatening concerns with regard to the overall build of the boat. The NS yard's responses, contacted from Plymouth, Gibraltar and The Canaries, about these matters, were quite astonishing ranging from '...can't you deal with it...' to '...it must be your fault...'.

I then studied ISO 12217-2 issued 2002 which is titled ‘Small Craft-Stability and Buoyancy Assessment and Categorisation’ and discovered that the vessel did not comply. I also went so far as to hunt down the author of the ISO who reluctantly confirmed that this was indeed the case he had not considered a lifting keel build in his formulations.

Moving on to the RYA, they initially co-operated, then speedily closed ranks when we pointed out their failings in allowing NS to remain self-certifying without any checks or oversight in place for years and, more importantly, that there were in existence hundreds of vessels (similarly built to ours) sold and certified under their 'umbrella'of assurance to sailors yet wholly illegal and unsafe.

We did suggest to the RYA that they have a responsibility to the other owners to contact them and make them aware of the possible dangers and illegal build within their vessels - doubt if they took us up on this, in fact I'm sure they didn't.

We then deemed it essential to contract a naval architect, marine consultant and surveyor to inspect our vessel thoroughly. The upshot being a 20 page litany of faults, many major, the most damning being that it was evident that the vessel did not conform with the requirements of the Recreational Craft Directive in respect of ISO 12212-2 and, therefore, has been sold illegally, by contravening current European legislation.

To cut a very long story slightly shorter, and after almost 2 years of legal 'argument' with Northshore, they eventually settled out of court.

Notably, whilst most NS vessels seem to remain in UK/EU waters, in my travels I have encountered two other vessel owners further afield (both in the Caribbean) enduring the same problems and difficulties resulting from Northshore's appalling illegal build quality and dismissive after-sales responses.

 

[Bajansailor]

Never met Gludy in business, but from his copious output on these forums he sounded like an absolute horror to do business with.

Duncan Lethbridge, the founder of St Francis, later told me that he was kicking himself for not having done any due diligence research into his new potential customer - if he had known about Gludy's trials and tribulations with Trader and Marlow, he would have simply and politely refused to do business with him.
Duncan was a real gentleman - sadly, he was murdered in his home in South Africa by burglars earlier this year

 

[Wansworth]

Back in the early 1970 I met a sort of boat finisher for want of a better description,he knew nothing about boats but was very good at high quality bodges and he worked for Northshore.‘

 

[skipper021]

Sadly - we did back in 2010, and had a very similar experience to this chap.

Lest the jokers come out to play as they do with a certain frequency on here (by 'jokers' I mean the fair-weather sailors who all seem to talk a good story at their keyboards from the shelter of their weekend G&T cabins whilst simultaneously hugging the safety of inlets and coastal waters smugly decrying those who venture further afield - with apologies to the serious sailors!) firstly I feel it necessary to lay down some basic credentials, not to brag but simply to underline that I have a vague idea of what I'm talking about here.

I have been sailing since a teenager and now (in my early 50's) am an experienced qualified ocean yachtmaster for just over 15 years, with over 55k nm and 6 Atlantic crossings (2 total sail no engine support) under my lifebelt, so feel I am slightly familiar with matters nautical. Nonetheless, we all learn a little something extra each and every day at sea as you will read!

Enticed to be patriotic and buy British back in 2010 was my first mistake - why oh why did I not get the Hallberg Rassy or Najad that I initially have eyes on??? The second was believing the smooth sales talk and workshop 'veneer' on the yard/factory tour. Also, my diligence could find little recorded negative if at all (then) regarding Northshore build history.

After delivery and a 6 week shakedown period in the Solent/Channel we sailed off (although, interestingly, just before this we did have a disconcerting off-the-record discussion with one of the shop floor workers who had been with them for 10 years who warned of problems to come!).

By the time we were abreast of Plymouth various problems had indeed manifested themselves, by Gibraltar we had a list of over 25 significant faults indicating that the vessel might not be seaworthy and by the Canary Islands we had enough for a book.

Also, do bear in mind that our vessel was designated with Category A OCEAN, which the RCD defines this category in Annex E of their RSG Guidelines 2009 as follows: ‘Designed for extended voyages where conditions may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort scale) and significant wave height of 4 metres and above but excluding abnormal conditions, and vessels largely self-sufficient’.

My close inspection, in the water and on the hard, then revealed numerous serious life-threatening concerns with regard to the overall build of the boat. The NS yard's responses, contacted from Plymouth, Gibraltar and The Canaries, about these matters, were quite astonishing ranging from '...can't you deal with it...' to '...it must be your fault...'.

I then studied ISO 12217-2 issued 2002 which is titled ‘Small Craft-Stability and Buoyancy Assessment and Categorisation’ and discovered that the vessel did not comply. I also went so far as to hunt down the author of the ISO who reluctantly confirmed that this was indeed the case he had not considered a lifting keel build in his formulations.

Moving on to the RYA, they initially co-operated, then speedily closed ranks when we pointed out their failings in allowing NS to remain self-certifying without any checks or oversight in place for years and, more importantly, that there were in existence hundreds of vessels (similarly built to ours) sold and certified under their 'umbrella'of assurance to sailors yet wholly illegal and unsafe.

We did suggest to the RYA that they have a responsibility to the other owners to contact them and make them aware of the possible dangers and illegal build within their vessels - doubt if they took us up on this, in fact I'm sure they didn't.

We then deemed it essential to contract a naval architect, marine consultant and surveyor to inspect our vessel thoroughly. The upshot being a 20 page litany of faults, many major, the most damning being that it was evident that the vessel did not conform with the requirements of the Recreational Craft Directive in respect of ISO 12212-2 and, therefore, has been sold illegally, by contravening current European legislation.

To cut a very long story slightly shorter, and after almost 2 years of legal 'argument' with Northshore, they eventually settled out of court.

Notably, whilst most NS vessels seem to remain in UK/EU waters, in my travels I have encountered two other vessel owners further afield (both in the Caribbean) enduring the same problems and difficulties resulting from Northshore's appalling illegal build quality and dismissive after-sales responses.

I think you're talking about Northshore Yachts here? And a 2010 Southerly not a Discovery?
Northshore yachts stopped building Southerly yachts around 2014 (I think) then there was a 'fallow' period before Discovery Group bought the Southerly assets in around 2017, then re-worked the designs before putting the larger 480/540 & 420 into production at the Discovery yachts yard in Marchwood

 

[Stemar]

Shame, I always fancied a Southerly Not that I'm ever likely to afford one.

I then studied ISO 12217-2 issued 2002 which is titled ‘Small Craft-Stability and Buoyancy Assessment and Categorisation’ and discovered that the vessel did not comply. I also went so far as to hunt down the author of the ISO who reluctantly confirmed that this was indeed the case he had not considered a lifting keel build in his formulations.
Does this mean that OVNIs are illegal as Cat A vessels? There seem to be an awful lot of them wandering the oceans

 

[RickMac]

Shame, I always fancied a Southerly Not that I'm ever likely to afford one.

I then studied ISO 12217-2 issued 2002 which is titled ‘Small Craft-Stability and Buoyancy Assessment and Categorisation’ and discovered that the vessel did not comply. I also went so far as to hunt down the author of the ISO who reluctantly confirmed that this was indeed the case he had not considered a lifting keel build in his formulations.
Does this mean that OVNIs are illegal as Cat A vessels? There seem to be an awful lot of them wandering the oceans

Not necessarily - the key measurement is that between the top level of the keel box or wherever water can ingress down to the waterline, aka free-board level - so without opening one up or seeing the drawings difficult to tell.....

 

[Daydream believer]

Did Stephen Jones design some Southerlies?
Cannot imagine such a renowned naval architect designing something that had such inherent faults. Of course he would not be responsible for bad workmanship.
If not Jones, then who were the designers?
If I were ( & I am not) a boat builder, would I not ask the designer to design the basic hull etc to a specific category? Surely that would be in any design brief The builder would then build with confidence, advertising the boat as meeting that brief
Whoever owns the moulds etc. now, is , one assumes, following the original base designs regardless of what the boat is called.

 

[pvb]

Did Stephen Jones design some Southerlies?

Yes, 5 models - 32, 330, 38, 470 and 480.

 

[RickMac]

I think you're talking about Northshore Yachts here? And a 2010 Southerly not a Discovery?
Northshore yachts stopped building Southerly yachts around 2014 (I think) then there was a 'fallow' period before Discovery Group bought the Southerly assets in around 2017, then re-worked the designs before putting the larger 480/540 & 420 into production at the Discovery yachts yard in Marchwood

Yes, skippero21, as mentioned throughout I was quite clearly referencing a Northshore - believe it or not I have taken great interest and have remained fully aware of the 'metamorphosis' and the history/transformation of Northshore/Southerly/Discovery over the last 10-12 years.

Agree with you but only to a point as, if you look at the current website here: Luxury Yachts For Sale - Bespoke Yacht Builder in Southampton UK - Discovery Yachts Group , any differential between the two is surely and purely one of semantics as the Discovery Group owns Discovery, Southerly, Bluewater and Britannia brands.

More to the point is that the Discovery Yachts Group proudly proclaim working with "...renowned naval architects Ron Holland, Ed Dubois, Rob Humphreys, Stephen Jones and Bill Dixon...". Rob Humphreys, albeit 'under the harness' of Northshore, was the designer/architect of our yacht.

So quite frankly I wouldn't care to differentiate between the Southerly of then and the Southerly of now - and I think the courts would not only spend a great deal of anyone's money mulling over any differences prior to eventually adjudicating that they are indeed the same company, ergo the boats 'came out of the same mould' so to speak.

Southerly Yachts Limited may have gone into liquidation, by name, in August 2014 but wasn't fully dissolved until late 2017 - DYG Limited retained the name under in their portfolio.

DYR UK Limited, previousy named Discovery Yachts Services Limited and then Discovery Yachts Limited (all with pretty much the same board members as the current incarnation of DYG Limited!) went into liquidation in late 2017. Interestingly, not unlike Northsore/Southerly's pattern shortly before the end was reached.

Not one to speculate (?) but this 'fluidity' pattern, pardon the pun, we see in the UK boat building trade seems to be reaching contagion proportion.....and it could possibly be interpreted as a cynical device employed to evade future creditors and/or legal actions.

 

[doug748]

A recent thread:

Any interest in a new build thread?

I think Barican has owned a number of Southerlies so perhaps he will be along to comment.