What weight NG anchor for a 20ft yacht?

[MM5AHO]

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Neeves said..
"Declaration of no interest in any anchors - anchor are compromise, there is no perfect anchor"

That's true, but despite that, many will claim theirs is superior to all others for all occasions and has served them well for many decades. I've never figured out why anchors is such an emotive topic.

 

[Neeves]

I might care to differ, slightly.

Anchor makers, and self styled proponents of same, will be enthusiastic about the positive attributes of their anchor and simply not mention that their product is basically useless in other environments. Overplay the positive and simply not mention the downsides. Most anchor testing simply reinforces this problem. I hate to reiterate but the Fortress test in Chesapeake mud (obviously chosen to underline the excellence of Fortress) did underline the weakness (not admitted by the manufacturer) of other designs.

What we do know, generally, is where specific designs Do work - not where they DO NOT work.

What is interesting is that not only are anchors an emotive issue but owners seem reluctant to admit they might have bought a lemon, for some seabeds. Few anchor work in thin mud - why not admit it? Few anchor work in heavy weed, why not admit it? Obviously if you never have had the need to anchor in heavy weed, or thin mud - why not admit it? If your experience in anchoring in east coast (UK) mud, or west coast Scotland seabeds is limited - why not admit it?

Chris, the OP, has left himself plenty of time to distil his decisions - and like everyone else his choice is partially influenced by price.

But accepting, do people accept?, there is no perfect anchor carry more than one - and a cross section of design.

Most anchors work in heavy mud and sand - its the other seabeds or special characteristics (does it fit the bow roller, is it light, is it cheap, is it easy to buy) where specific designs stand out.



Similarly the idea that a marina has a lot of a certain type of anchor on bow rollers does not, necessarily, mean the anchor is good in every seabed (because they aren't) - it commonly means that is what the local chandler sells - and when you need an anchor you usually need it now - and if its on the floor - guess what most will buy.

And why does a chandler stock that anchor - because he is offered consignment stock, or it is very cheap and/or the profit margin is good.

Maybe I should hide my cynicisms.

Jonathan

 

[thinwater]

... And why does a chandler stock that anchor - because he is offered consignment stock, or it is very cheap and/or the profit margin is good.....

I could ask that about many items. Thin fender washers, which bend under light bolt torque, leading to core damage, come to mind. They do far more damage than substandard anchors. Yet whole chains stock nothing else.

That's my pet peeve. If you will buy it, they will sell it.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Our cqr limited our west coast trip this year, had no faith in it after its failed to reset after a couple of wind shifts and long nights in anchor watch, noticed rocnas we’re plentiful in marinas up that way so that’s what I’m going for

Lots of Rocnas at Ardfern, which is a Rocna dealership. Fewer elsewhere.

‘West coast of Scotland’ is pretty general. My guess is that the OP is intending to cruise the Clyde, loads of very safe anchorages and also marinas to run to if the going gets tough. I still think the CQR is more than adequate for this cruising ground ...

Agreed. The only place I have dragged (a) a cheapCQR knock-off copy and (b) a proper forged CQR was Ardinamir, and everybody drags there, it seems,in the right (ie wrong) conditions.

Declaration of no interest in any anchors - anchor are compromise, there is no perfect anchor.

I take a similar but different approach. All anchors work fine, as long as you use a big enough one. At this very moment my boat is anchored to an old railway wheel. Unsubtle shape, but weighing a tonne makes up for it.

The two advantages of NG anchors seem to be (1) setting speed and (2) holding power per unit weight. Since a properly sized CQR will hold just fine, by definition (no true Scotsman), it follows that a properly sized NG anchor should be about half the weight of the CQR it replaces. It never is, though.Most people seem to go for the same weight,or even heavier, which shows a remarkable lack of trust in the NG design.

Mind you, this sort of jiggery-pokery has been going on for years. When Fortresses came out, the makers boasted about how much more efficient they were than Danforths. However, that was in holding power per unit weight, and those designs actually work by area. A Fortress and a Danforth of the same physical size work just about as well as each other.

 

[Kukri]

Lots of Rocnas at Ardfern, which is a Rocna dealership. Fewer elsewhere.



Agreed. The only place I have dragged (a) a cheapCQR knock-off copy and (b) a proper forged CQR was Ardinamir, and everybody drags there, it seems,in the right (ie wrong) conditions.



I take a similar but different approach. All anchors work fine, as long as you use a big enough one. At this very moment my boat is anchored to an old railway wheel. Unsubtle shape, but weighing a tonne makes up for it.

The two advantages of NG anchors seem to be (1) setting speed and (2) holding power per unit weight. Since a properly sized CQR will hold just fine, by definition (no true Scotsman), it follows that a properly sized NG anchor should be about half the weight of the CQR it replaces. It never is, though.Most people seem to go for the same weight,or even heavier, which shows a remarkable lack of trust in the NG design.

Mind you, this sort of jiggery-pokery has been going on for years. When Fortresses came out, the makers boasted about how much more efficient they were than Danforths. However, that was in holding power per unit weight, and those designs actually work by area. A Fortress and a Danforth of the same physical size work just about as well as each other.

+1.

A twenty foot boat will be just fine on almost any 7-8kg anchor and chain, or chain and warp, and there is no point in using anything smaller.

If she isn't, you are doing something wrong,

 

[Neeves]

Lots of Rocnas at Ardfern, which is a Rocna dealership. Fewer elsewhere.

The two advantages of NG anchors seem to be (1) setting speed and (2) holding power per unit weight. Since a properly sized CQR will hold just fine, by definition (no true Scotsman), it follows that a properly sized NG anchor should be about half the weight of the CQR it replaces. It never is, though.Most people seem to go for the same weight,or even heavier, which shows a remarkable lack of trust in the NG design.

+1 - to the complete post

Some of course oversize so much they are effectively carrying a portable mooring - and then rave about how good their anchor is

The lack of faith in NG anchors is not limited to the consumer - generalising..... the anchor weight to vessel length charts for CQR/Delta/Bruce are uncannily similar to the anchor weight to vessel length charts of the NG anchor makers (yet the NG anchor makers are claiming better performance). There is nothing wrong with increasing safety factors - but if a 6kg (or 20kg) Delta/Bruce/CQR has been giving stalwart service since the inception of these anchors - why disregard the already cautious recommendation of the NG anchor maker and go bigger still.

The other contradiction is that people complain about the costs of 'marine' products - and then voluntarily spend more on anchors than the already cautious recommendation of the manufacturer. How many here have bought the next size up or 2 size up of their NG anchor v the supplier recommendation. How many read that recommendation somewhere in virtually every anchor thread - and have you ever wondered about the reasoning behind it.

Whereas there is no evidence that a bigger (than recommended) anchor is dangerous there is no evidence that it is any safer - except for that reliability of 'gut feel'.

Again generalising Spade does tend to suggest slightly smaller anchors v vessel length than Rocna, Supreme, Excel (and I confess not to have checked Knox).

Jonathan

 

[thinwater]

... - why disregard the already cautious recommendation of the NG anchor maker and go bigger still[?]

Because of fear-mongering on threads like this.

Another possible explanation is that if the boat is already set up to handle X pounds, why not enjoy the added safety? As much as I like to argue in favor of saving weight, the difference between 35 pounds and 45 pounds is academic. (You won't get me to let go of wasted chain mass so easily!)

In my case, I went from a 25-pound Delta that dragged through soft mud like a waltz as soon the wind hit 25 knots, to a 35-pound Manson Supreme. I needed BOTH a better design AND more weight. The Delta was tragic. Even the Manson was not too large when a squall found me anchored in that same crappy mud. The old school answer, which I did for several years, was avoid poor holding ground. Carrying an extra 10 pounds and anchoring where I wanted was better.

But it's about choices.

 

[Neeves]

Because of fear-mongering on threads like this.

Another possible explanation is that if the boat is already set up to handle X pounds, why not enjoy the added safety? As much as I like to argue in favor of saving weight, the difference between 35 pounds and 45 pounds is academic.

Please define, quantitatively, the extra safety.

The difference between 35lb and 45lb is possibly about 100 pounds, sterling - which might be academic to you but not everyone and it is a lot if it is unnecessary.

And you well know - in thin mud, maybe even middling density mud - both the Supreme and Delta are the wrong design, you needed a Danforth or Fortress. Don't blame the anchor - blame the choice.

 

[thinwater]

Please define, quantitatively, the extra safety.

The difference between 35lb and 45lb is possibly about 100 pounds, sterling - which might be academic to you but not everyone and it is a lot if it is unnecessary.

And you well know - in thin mud, maybe even middling density mud - both the Supreme and Delta are the wrong design, you needed a Danforth or Fortress. Don't blame the anchor - blame the choice.

The difference is that in my case, the difference between 25 and 35 pounds was just enough. Yes, a fortress is great for soft mud, but it's not generally what you keep on your roller.

But this is academic. The point is that is this is why people go up in size with NG.

 

[noelex]

The difference is that in my case, the difference between 25 and 35 pounds was just enough. Yes, a fortress is great for soft mud, but it's not generally what you keep on your roller.
But this is academic. The point is that is this is why people go up in size with NG.

+1

This is why for a serious cruising boat the philosophy of fitting the largest anchor you can comfortably manage, works well .

All anchors are flawed. No anchor (or combination of anchors) allows us to anchor in all conditions, in all substrates, in all locations, at short scopes (so we can squeeze into tight spaces). Increasing the size (and quality) reduces, but does not eliminate the flaws. This opens up new cruising grounds and opportunities.

Forget brand loyalty, we live in great times when anchors are improving rapidly often by new companies spurred by the owner’s passion to make a better anchor. If you are frequently anchoring overnight, the slight extra cost of a better anchor will not be regretted.

The other development (that unfortunately the OP cannot make use of) is powerful, reliable electric anchor winches that enable even a small crew to easily handle large anchors. My current anchor is five times heavier than the anchor on my first yacht, but it is much easier to manage. I just push a button . These developments have real practical implications enabling boats to anchor in locations and conditions that would not previously have been wise.

A few weeks ago we anchored in a beautiful bay. There was a house overlooking the bay when we dinghied ashore the owner of house came down and offered a lift into town (meeting lovely people like this is one of the joys of cruising). He said he lived in the same house for 30 years and never seen another yacht anchored in the bay.

 

[JumbleDuck]

This is why for a serious cruising boat the philosophy of fitting the largest anchor you can comfortably manage, works well .

Well, it certainly works, but what is the point of buying an anchor capable of withstanding forces far greater than the boat will ever exert?

 

[Neeves]

Well, it certainly works, but what is the point of buying an anchor capable of withstanding forces far greater than the boat will ever exert?

I was going to post

+1

and then realised I was not keeping up to date:

https://www.google.com/url?q=https:...:m2ealvuxh1i&usg=AOvVaw1s8u0sBpDyc3zoFfGxB366

Jonathan

 

[noelex]

Well, it certainly works, but what is the point of buying an anchor capable of withstanding forces far greater than the boat will ever exert?

I wish someone would make an anchor that fulfilled this requirement .

Better still if they could guarantee this in any substrate and at short scope. As a side benefit, such an anchor would spell the end of anchoring threads .

Even people that are very happy with their anchor recognise the limitations: “I cannot anchor there, as the holding is poor”, “There is not enough protection”, “It’s too deep”, “The current is too strong” “This is only a day time anchorage” etc. Even whole seasons are sometimes vetoed: “There are too many gales in winter so you need to find a marina berth.”

These are all valid concerns, and one of the most important aspects of seamanship is recognising the limitations of the vessel and crew. With the best and largest anchor you can comfortably fit, these limitations will still remain, but they are minimised. Locations and areas open up, anchorages that were only suitable for daytime or in settled weather become safe in a wider range of conditions.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Locations and areas open up, anchorages that were only suitable for daytime or in settled weather become safe in a wider range of conditions.

Of course, but all these things require an adequately sized anchor, not an oversized one.

 

[fifer]

For information about a 6.5kg Knox. They will be on special at the Kip boatshow. A significant discount, that size only. See you at the show!

Declaration of interest: I sell Knox anchors.

I'll be at kip and I'm in the market for a 9kg Knox. Will there be any deals?

 

[Neeves]

Of course, but all these things require an adequately sized anchor, not an oversized one.

+1

and/or anchors suitable for the substrate.

I'd frown if people visit unknown locations and only carry only one anchor. It relatively easy to change anchors on a smaller yacht - and larger yachts taken to unknown places surely have twin bow rollers.

There is evidence that 2 anchors set in 'V' are safer than one large anchor when a forecast shows the wind will be from a fairly constant direction. If the wind is likely to veer - the 'V' need be established to accomodate the change.

Of short scope - Thinwater clearly demonstrated that at short scope hold reduces - the size of the anchor makes no difference - the windage dictates the hold developed NOT the size of the anchor. As JD repetitiously implies oversizing does not increase hold. However I am sure we would welcome evidence that we are wrong - that somehow a big anchor magically develops hold over and above that developed by engine or windage.

Jonathan

 

[noelex]

As JD repetitiously implies oversizing does not increase hold. However I am sure we would welcome evidence that we are wrong - that somehow a big anchor magically develops hold over and above that developed by engine or windage.

Jonathan, try this simple test:

Take two anchors of very different sizes, but they should be otherwise identical. The make and exact sizes are not important, but for example you could select a 5kg steel Rocna and a 40kg steel Rocna.

Now put them on the ground next to each other. Take a good look, walk around and examine them from all angles. At first you may think it’s obvious that the two anchors will have the same potential holding power, but don’t give up, look longer. Several hours helps.

Gradually, with time, you will come to the realisation, just by looking at the two anchors, that in any sort of normal substrate the 40kg Rocna will hold a higher force than the 5kg Rocna before it starts to drag. It’s truly an amazing revelation, magic in fact.



Sorry, anchor threads just become too silly at times.

 

[Neeves]

Well, it certainly works, but what is the point of buying an anchor capable of withstanding forces far greater than the boat will ever exert?

Instead of being too silly I think you could read this post again - and try to understand it - normally it would only take a few seconds.

Jonathan

 

[GHA]

ours helps.

Gradually, with time, you will come to the realisation, just by looking at the two anchors, that in any sort of normal substrate the 40kg Rocna will hold a higher force than the 5kg Rocna before it starts to drag. It’s truly an amazing revelation, magic in fact.



Sorry, anchor threads just become too silly at times.

Though only a minority on here really say don't be silly enough go up a size for cruising, and close to zero in the real cruising world. Just one lone voice on a web forum...

 

[webcraft]

.
Oversized anchors are a recipe for a slipped disc or worse when your windlass fails, and actual weight in the anchor is irrelevant compared to the weight of a decent amount of chain deployed. It is the surface area of the anchor, how well it is set, and its tendency to break out under load that is important, and none of these factors are directly proportional to weight. I agree 100% with Jumbleduck - an appropriately sized NG anchor is all you need. You can have a 50Kg CQR and unless you are very careful there are occasions when it will just be an poorly set dead weight lying on the seabed and a 10Kg NG anchor properly set would serve you better.

As for carrying more than one anchor - yes, essential on a well set up cruising boat for several reasons, but notusually because you may need a choice depending on the sea bed. A Spade (for example) will hold as well or better than any other anchor in virtually any substrate except rock, where a fisherman might be better.

(I don't anchor on rock though if I can avoid it, and wouldn't have the space to give a fisherman locker room.)

- W