What weight can I tow?

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pcatterall

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Had nearly finished my post when it just disapeared grrr all those figures to bore you all with again.

I was looking at a boat for sale and asking you about bearing repairs in a previous thread, lots of tips... thank you all... and the guy will now sort out the bearings prior to sale.

I want to tow my trailer sailer ( when I get one !) with my transit van and have done some searches here and on google but am still not 100% sure so I am coming back to the experts
More info will certainly help me and may be of interest to others.

My van is a 3.5 tonne rear wheel drive. The plate shows 3.5 and 5.0 which I take to be the Max Gross Weight and the Max Train Weight. She has a makers kerb weight of 2 tonnes which I actually take as 2.2 tonnes.

I think this indicates that I could tow up to 2.8 tonnes but that this is limited to 80% of the kerb weight ie 1.76 tonnes ?

The boat I was looking at has a displacment of 1.3 tonnes and an unplated 4 wheel trailer,I know I will have to add a figure to the displacment weight and allow for the trailer weight ( any guesses on that guys?) and suppose that this will take me over the legal limit.

It seems ,though, that adding weight to the van ( increasing the kerb weight) would allow me to tow more so that with a kerb weight of 2.8 tonnes I could tow 2 tonnes of boat/trailer.
( sound a bit like I am deluding myself here!!)

I suppose that if I want to tow with this van then I may need to consider a boat weighing less than a tonne and make sure that the trailer is not plated above the figure I can legally tow.


Many thanks on an update on this old chestnut.
 
The gross train weight is the legal maximum. Above that and you could be prosecuted.

85% of the kerb weight is a Caravanning club recommendation for the max weight of a caravan.
The kerb weight is defined as the weight of the vehicle plus a full tank of petrol and 75kg (for the driver and luggage). Its not the weight of the vehicle plus all the rubbish you can possibly pile into it! It makes sense, however, to transfer as much weight from the boat to the van (batteries , anchor, chain etc)

Your rig will be within Gross train weight if that's 5 tonnes and I would not have thought not much above the 85% recommendation, if at all.
 
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You can only tow 1500kg, thats the difference between the gross vehicle weight and the gross train weight, you cannot leave the van empty and add it to the train weight.
 
For reference I used to have a heavily built 4 wheel trailer for (upto) 26' keel boats which was 400kg unladen (3000kg gross).

Andy
 
You can only tow 1500kg, thats the difference between the gross vehicle weight and the gross train weight
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That puts a different complexion on it!

A bit of digging suggests not only are you right but that 1500kg is the max gross weight of the trailer you could tow even if its empty. In other words you could not legally tow a 1700kg gross weight trailer with nothing on it!

No better off with a Transit van than my car. That can tow 1500kg according to all the figures. In reality it struggles with a tonne.
 
Be very careful.

Have a look this thread on the "Transit van forum" !!

I have a Mk5 SWB 150 rated at 5,200kg GTW

I got the van on a weighbridge a while back with a full tank of fuel, a usual supply of tools and me in it, and it weighed just under 2200kg, I never have more than this in it for towing. So we can safely assume my 'job ready' kerb weight is under 2200kg.

I use a Brian James trailer which is plated at 3000kg, and weighs 750kg... it has a load capacity of 2250kg

This (I thought) left me legal as my GTW would be at the specified 5,200kg, and my B+E entitlement means that the MAM of the trailer doesn't have to be less than the unladen weight of the towing vehicle.

I got pulled over and taken to a weighbridge just a couple of miles after leaving, which was a first for me. The GTW with the landrover on the trailer come in at 4941kg... great I thought, on my way...... no :(

The copper then informs me that the combined weight of the MAM of the trailer (which I knew the MAM would be used not the actual weight if it's lower) and the MAM of the towing vehicle is over the GTW. I wasn't aware that the weights for the towing vehicle were the MAM weights, I thought it was actual weight.

It turns out that the MAM of my van is 3200kg, leaving only 2000kg MAM remaining for legal towing... this is quite useless for me. If I get a lightweight trailer of around ~500kg, the most I can legally tow is 1500kg weight on the back? meaning that towing the likes of large vehicles like Landrovers and Transits is impossible
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After a lot of digging by an (ex??) traffic policeman the following reply was forthcoming (it's on page 9 of the link above):

I have had a reply to my e-mail to the Department for Transport, which (in my opinon) finally clarifies the situation.

The reply is as follows:

"Thank you for your email of 16 June to this Department about the fact sheets published on the Department's website providing guidance about towing. Your email has been passed to this section because we are responsible for the regulations relating to towing.

There are two different circumstances which dictate the permissible maximum weight of towed trailers:

1) The towing vehicle manufacturer specifies the maximum mass of a trailer to towed: or,
2) The towing vehicle manufacturer specifies a maximum trail weight of the combination: i.e. maximum mass of towing vehicle and trailer.

The first is quite clear and is self explanatory. The second permits some flexibility and therefore if the towing vehicle is not fully loaded and is below the maximum vehicle weight, when a trailer/caravan is attached to the vehicle there may be some remaining weight capacity within the overall maximum combination (train) weight. However, the driver of the vehicle is responsible for ensuring that the nose weight of the tow ball, the weight limit of the tow bar/ tow bar mountings or any of the axle/gross/train weights are not exceeded.

In the example given on the fact sheet "Towing cars and light vehicles: frequently asked questions" we have assumed, for simplicity, that the towing vehicle is fully loaded to its maximum capacity and this is indicated by the sentence "So if for example you have a car with a maximum weight of 2180kg and a train weight of 3980kg the maximum towing capacity will be 3980kg minus 2180kg which gives a towing capacity of 1800kg", which you quoted in your email.

The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 don't explicitly state that to calculate the towing weight you subtract the maximum vehicle weight from the maximum train weight. However, we have aimed to summarise the regulations in a simple format for the general public.

We are unable to comment on any actions taken by enforcement officers, including the police.

As you will appreciate the above views are my opinion and not those of the Department as interpretation of the law is the prerogative of the courts.

I hope this clarifies the situation."


The sentence: 'The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 don't explicitly state that to calculate the towing weight you subtract the maximum vehicle weight from the maximum train weight' is the important one.

So to go back to the original post, and to answer LSi's question, you WERE quite legal, plod was wrong in this case, (although I would suggest that his/her mistake could be an honest one mitigated by the misleading information available to them). So you DON'T need to sell your van and buy a Discovery!

As long as you don't exceed any of the specific weights on your plates, and provided the V5c doesn't give any maximum trailer weight, you carry on my friend.

If you get pulled up in the future and someone suggests that you are exceeding the max trailer weight, ask them under which specific regulation you are committing an offence.

This is not a grey area, or a loophole, it's just that it would appear that quite a few plods have been misinformed.
Click to expand...

Sorry for not trimming the quotes.

HTH

Andy
 
Thanks Andy, that's very useful. Although I haven't yet got to the bottom of it "from first principles" myself, DfT's reading of the C&U regs aligns with mine. Only being able to tow the difference between the GVW (MAM) of the towing vehicle and the GTW of the combination - even when the towing vehicle is not laden to its full capacity is a ludicrous concept!

HOWEVER, I believe that our friends in Brussels are planning to introduce EC laws to that effect for new cars being type approved at some point in the future.
 
I have been looking into this as well, and every site I went on to seemed to contradict each other, so I rang the traffic plods for a diffinitive answere and even they were unsure!
so they said they would look it up and get back to me.....and they did, with quite a pleasent suprise.

I told them I wanted to tow my boat ( an unbalasted steel 32ft riptide approx 3.5 t ) they told me that as I passed my driving test around the the same time as noah (many moons ago) I was allowed to have an all up train weight of 8.25 t, so it is also dependent on when you passed your driving test. so towing it with with a landy I'm well within the limits.

regards rachel
 
I trailed a 22ft Swin Ranger (manufacturers displacement figure 1.7 tons) twice a year for about 12 years with various vehicles, twice was a Citroen BX. The trailer was a braked single axle, distance was about 30 miles which included the hill coming out of Weymouth.
I asked a friend who was a police inspector (traffic) what the law was, but he said he couldn't be definitive as the law in that area was 'complicated'. He advised that I tow it slowly!
Luckily (I suppose) I was never stopped and had no mishaps.

Boatrail.jpg
 
ironmaiden said:
I have been looking into this as well, and every site I went on to seemed to contradict each other, so I rang the traffic plods for a diffinitive answere and even they were unsure!
so they said they would look it up and get back to me.....and they did, with quite a pleasent suprise.

I told them I wanted to tow my boat ( an unbalasted steel 32ft riptide approx 3.5 t ) they told me that as I passed my driving test around the the same time as noah (many moons ago) I was allowed to have an all up train weight of 8.25 t, so it is also dependent on when you passed your driving test. so towing it with with a landy I'm well within the limits.

regards rachel
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I'm not so sure. Your Landy will be plated to tow up to 3.5t. If the boat weighs 3.5t then by putting it on a trailer it will end up over 4t. This is then beyond the legal limit of what the Landy can tow.
 
neale said:
I'm not so sure. Your Landy will be plated to tow up to 3.5t. If the boat weighs 3.5t then by putting it on a trailer it will end up over 4t. This is then beyond the legal limit of what the Landy can tow.
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I agree. I dont think this is anywhere near right.
Some years ago, I also asked plod.. they said.. boats oo err, ask someone else, we cant understand it.
As I recall:
You have a max for the vehicle on its own
You have a max for the whole set-up
You have a max for the tow
You have a max from the trailer (build) too
You have your own driving licence restrictions
There are width and length issues too, both the boat and overhang. No wonder no one gets to the bottom of it!
All those obviously interlink, so your licence may permit an 8 tonne rig, but not if the vehicle limit is 3.5t

You need to check the handbook, as magazines often quote the highest tow within that vehicle model, but it varies alot within the model.
Very roughly, a good big car will manage about 1.5 tonnes; a medium 4*4 will manage 2-2.5 tonnes, and only the biggest hardcore 4*4 will manage 3.5 tonnes. In fact many 4*4 are pretty pathetic on their limit.
Allow 500-750kg for a heavy duty trailer, and I reckon you are lucky if you can tow a boat weighing more than 2.75 tonnes, and thats loaded, not an empty factory hull, so call it 2.5t.
 
ironmaiden said:
...
I told them I wanted to tow my boat ( an unbalasted steel 32ft riptide approx 3.5 t ) they told me that as I passed my driving test around the the same time as noah (many moons ago) I was allowed to have an all up train weight of 8.25 t, so it is also dependent on when you passed your driving test. so towing it with with a landy I'm well within the limits.

regards rachel
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Different thing - the above train weight is what YOU are licensed for.

And as a general point, my impression is that 'Traffic' are *not* experts in towing law.

Andy
 
You need to read: http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/vehicles/vssafety/requirementsfortrailers

In particular:
"In the case of light trailers, that is less than 3500kg maximum laden weight, there is not any specified relationship in UK law between the weight of the towing vehicle and the weight of the trailer."

And:
"Neither the maximum permissible trailer weight or the maximum gross train weight (the laden weight of the trailer plus the laden weight of the towing vehicle) should be exceeded. It is possible that the stated gross train weight is less than the sum of the stated maximum permissible laden weight of the towing vehicle and the stated maximum permissible laden trailer weight. In this case the towing vehicle and the trailer must be loaded such that each does not exceed its individual maximum limit and the sum of both does not exceed the maximum gross train weight."

So - yes, you CAN leave the towing vehicle empty in order to maximise the trailer's capacity - you are only obliged to NOT exceed the maximum gross weight of EITHER the towing vehicle or trailer, or of course the maximum train weight.
 
That seems reasonable. I was thinking about it today and thought that a good analogy for getting prosecuted on the basis of the MAXIMUM trailer weight (even when not carrying that weight) would be a bit like getting prosecuted for speeding simply because you had a car that was CAPABLE of exceeding the speed limit - though not actually doing so at the time!
 
From reading the above doc it would also appear that it isn't automatically 'against the law' to exceed the Gross Train Weight, (although I wouldn't recommend anyone actually trying to test it) - the wording is "If this [GTW] is exceeded it is possible that the Courts or Insurance Companies may take the view that this constitutes a danger." Extraordinary.

If you want some real fun - call in at your local old bill shop and tell 'em that you're thinking of buying an 'A-frame' for towing, and you wondered if they could advise whether they are legal or not.

The law on those is even more obscure than for trailers.
 
misterg said:
Different thing - the above train weight is what YOU are licensed for.

And as a general point, my impression is that 'Traffic' are *not* experts in towing law.

Andy
Click to expand...

well all I did was tell plod exactly what I was going to do.. all the details of the boat, trailer and landy, including all weights, and the reply was that as long as I didn't exceed 8.25 t all up I was legal.
so who is one to believe plod or people on here ? anyone out there know the real answer cos I'm getting confused

regards rachel.
 
Do NOT!!!! believe "plod" if they told you 8.25t with a Landrover!!! I suspect there might have been a bit of a misunderstanding but they should have said that YOU are licensed to tow up to 8.25t, meaning "...with a suitable vehicle"? If they definitely knew you were using a Landie, then I believe they're wrong!
 
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