What was so great about the Pope?

I have really enjoyed reading this thread.

I am still surprised that anyone can believe. I am still surprised that highly intelligent people at the head of the Catholic and Protestant Church believe or that Tony Blair or Kim or many members or this forum believes.

The fact there is nothing to substantiate their belief makes it all the more remarkable and impressive. I think it has been a good debate.
 
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We'll have to disagree on that though I suspect that you would be hard pressed to find, in a debate on religion, anybody who is un-biased. He is certainly no more biased than anyone else on this thread; though it is obvious that he takes a different view from you.

I do not understand why you are claiming a lack of accurate facts in his arguement; but in discussions on religion people frequently confuse "beliefs" with "facts". I wonder if you have fallen into that trap?

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I think your posts to this thread show that you pretty well agree with Jimi's POV. Nor do I think you can tell my views on the pope from my postings on this or any other thread.

Jimi tried to take the moral high ground by saying that the hates bigotry, yet his own posts evidence that he is irrationally anti-catholic. Where he does try to put forwards arguments he bases them not on "facts" in any sense of the word but wild assertions.
 
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I think your posts to this thread show that you pretty well agree with Jimi's POV. Nor do I think you can tell my views on the pope from my postings on this or any other thread.

Jimi tried to take the moral high ground by saying that the hates bigotry, yet his own posts evidence that he is irrationally anti-catholic. Where he does try to put forwards arguments he bases them not on "facts" in any sense of the word but wild assertions.

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I really don't understand where you are coming from on this and I certainly have no opinion on your view on the pope. Other than your own wild assertion that Jimi is a bigot, you don't appear to have stated a view on anything. I guess that we'll just have to disagree.
 
My friend you have the honour

of being the first and I hope only user I have pressed the "Ignore this user" button on. Despite repeated requests you have failed to make a single reasoned argument and have persisted in unwarranted personal attacks.
 
Michael maybe you should ask yourself why so many people of obvious high intellect have been believers over the last 2000 years? Then ask yourself supposing, hypothetically of course, for just one minute, that they might be right, where does that put me or you?

Nobody can prove the existence of God. It requires faith and each of us has been given the free choice to accept or not. I have proof to MY own satisfaction that, in my life certain events have happened too often and too consistently to be IMVHO the results of random happenings. You cannot see the wind and so, ergo, it does not exist, you can only see its effects. I believe therefore that you can see the "proof" of God in the lives people live.

When I was in Zaïre (Congo) for example I knew an American doctor who had been raised in a missionary family. As a boy they were caught up in the Stanleyville massacre and, as he hid, he saw his father and his brother hacked to death in front of his eyes. As this was happening, he prayed that if the Lord saved him, he would come back and serve these very people. He became a doctor and did just that.

I knew a minister who lost two of his three children through illness in the country but continued his mission work there.

I knew of another doctor who started off as an ordinary mission worker in the bush. He decided one day that they could carry out their work much more effectively if they had a light aeroplane. So he went back to the States and raised the money for one. To complete the act, he trained as both an airplane mechanic and as a pilot. A little while later he felt he could be more valuable as a doctor and so he came back and qualified as one. Again later he thought that if they could have a hospital ship on the Congo river (navigable for over a thousand miles) they could offer treatment to so many more. So again he returned to the States and raised the money. And we are talking about a five-decked river ship equipped with wards, operating theatres, pharmacies, dental surgeries - the works. When I met him in the '70's he was just on his way back to raise funds for a second ship.

I could give many more examples - including citing the work that the Salvation Army (a registered church) does among the poorest down and outs.

The church (and remember a church is about people, not a building) as I know it bears no relationship to the caricatures that I see in this and recent threads.

John
 
Not sure what this proves. I'm a devout atheist, but have worked with the Samaritans and Crisis at Christmas etc etc, but this doesn't require any religious belief, just a willingness to help others?
 
Re: My friend you have the honour

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of being the first and I hope only user I have pressed the "Ignore this user" button on. Despite repeated requests you have failed to make a single reasoned argument and have persisted in unwarranted personal attacks.

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Which of course proves that you are right!

I have made a number of posts questioning certain assertions you have made, and asking for clarification for example on what you mean by "established church".

You have not expanded your meaning nor provided any evidence for what you assert to be fact.

It seems strange that you find it so unpalatable when someone treats you the way you treat many...
 
But from my point of view - given the context of this forum, I reckon I have more evidence of God's existence than I do of yours....... but what the heck, being a generous soul I'll give you the benefit of the doubt! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
Re: My friend you have the honour

Pierrot, you are not reading the responses here. I'm speaking from the point of view of being brought up Roman Catholic, and later being a scientist.

I don't see anything in Jimi's posts that is bigoted, but you seem to have some issues with what he has posted. Perhaps it might help if you can point out exactly what you disagree with, as so far it's a bit woolly
 
Brendan, although a Christian myself I do not personally buy in to the exclusivity of the Christian ticket to heaven. I believe that Jesus came to show us the way and, as far as I can see, the foundation of this "way" is to look after each other, and there are many millions of people of all faiths, along with Humanists and athiests that live their lives in this way. A truly loving God can really want no more from his/her creation.

God is too big to need worship, but a relationship with "him" is very important to me.

So in the words of Bill and Ted... "Be excellent to each other and party on".

Steve.
 
Nickel really enjoyed our exchanges and learnt a lot in the process .. buy you a beer sometime and we'll talk about football or something instead;-)
 
There is that word again : "proves" .....

I cannot prove anything, I can only believe. But my position was not only based on good works, but in what I consider response to prayer.


John
 
Your post was about people who have performed good deeds, but at same time were religious. My response was that there are people who perform similar deeds, but are not at all religious.
 
Can't people do good deeds to one another, and help one another, without spiritual meaning being associated? I'm all for the 10 commandments as good solid advice on how to behave. But as to whether they mean you go to some hell if you don't behave, no way.
 
Of course people can do good deeds without "spiritual meaning" and God is not going to be impressed by crass attempts to buy favour through good deeds (Stairway to Heaven?).

By caring for each other we are loving God. I may be at variance with some Christians, but I do not believe that "goodness" in the eyes of God is a blessing given to those who, through accident (geographical or cultural) of birth, have heard of Christ.

A Church, as a direct consequence of it's sense of community, acts as a catalyst to good work. This effect is, however, often evident wherever people group together. Goodness and conscience are present in most believers and atheists alike.

I respect your way of life and your religious sceptism, although I believe that you are missing out on something wonderful now. I certainly don't believe that are heading for eternal condemnation!

Be excellent to each other and party on dudes!
 
............Michael maybe you should ask yourself why so many people of obvious high intellect have been believers over the last 2000 years? Then ask yourself supposing, hypothetically of course, for just one minute, that they might be right, where does that put me or you?.........................

I think your point has been responded to but my 2penny worth is that there are far more people in this world who are not Christians and there are millions of atheists as well - if not billions - and a lot of those are pretty bright - not sure numbers prove anything.

When I was in Hong Kong I got quite to like the idea of having lots of gods to prey to.... Strangely I am superstitious and do believe that there are things about our minds and intellects that we still are far from understanding but.....

You do not have to believe in a god to be a caring compassionate person with a sense of moral duty. That goes with being human not with being a believer. I can see no evidence in recent events - wars - starvation - cruelty - natural disasters affecting hundreds of thousands causing untold misery - to substantiate the concept there is a caring god up there somewhere looking down benignly on humanity - particularly Christians.
 
This is a subject I actually get myself quite confused about because there is dissonance between my intellectual and spiritual/emotional being. Intellectually I find it hard to accept the existence of "god", emotionally I need one. If I then accept the existence of god, I then find it hard to accept that only a small proportion of people have the "right" god and everyone else has the "wrong" one, partic when those with the "right" one tell me I'm damned unless I drop mine and accept their's.
So I tend to think there there is a supreme being of some sort cos I need to, And I'm too arrogant to think that my wee life has no purpose and therefore when the lights go out then thats it. But like StugeronSteve I hold it at a personal level.

And being a wee hypocrite when the chips are down ie a wee prayer tends to be offered up .. I remember my grandfather who was in the trenches in WW1 telling me .. "There were no atheists in the trenches."

I'll tell you in the next life.. unless I come back as a slug!
 
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I can see no evidence in recent events - wars - starvation - cruelty - natural disasters affecting hundreds of thousands causing untold misery - to substantiate the concept there is a caring god up there somewhere looking down benignly on humanity - particularly Christians.

[/ QUOTE ] Ah, now we are into pre-destiny v self determination, exciting thological ground. Many Christians, including me, believe in a free creation, and that God has shown us the way and left us to get on with things. To simplify this(not intended as an insult, just an expedient for the time available) if God involved himself, univited, in everything that occurs we would have no freedom and would never mature to goodness. He will help in response to prayer, as a parent would answer an offsprings plea for help. We are not puppets and all too often, as a result, s**t happens.
 
Agree entirely Steve.

Oh we could get onto some massive topics here, but an image expresses it for me best - a variation on a Greek Orthodox icon of the first millennium.

The Gates of the Underworld lie shattered in pieces on the deck. The saints of the Church have battered them down using the Cross as the battering ram. But beyond, of course, now liberated, is all humanity.

The Church's Second Vatican Council doing a bit of holy navel gazing defined the 'People of God.' And in a wonderfully inclusive and reflective piece of wisdom they kept on with a long passage that includes all of all faiths, and then ends with something like 'nor is God remote from those who, through no fault of their own, have not yet come to an understanding of Christ's message, and yet with an honest heart strive to do what is right.'

I like Bill and Ted's summary of this wisdom.

And the s**t happens reality of life, is part of our human condition. I don't personally believe in the literal truth of the Adam and Eve story, but the spiritual wisdom contained within is very deep. We're created - intended for perfection - but given absolute free will - we use that free will to learn evil - in doing so hide away and separate ourselves from God.

As you say, God has made us free - and look what we did with it - but what is freedom if, having made a mess of it, he comes straight back and gives a right good shelacking for the mess we've made. Instead he comes back, as one of us, clears up the mess [the icon again], and shows us how not to do it again!
 
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