What was so great about the Pope?

Re: Nickel

.............I've always thought that false prophets can be spotted by how they die - if they're old, fat, rich and surrounded by lots of women - they're false...................

Sounds to me like they got it right! Nothing succeeds like success. Why do we have to assume that only the righteous die poor and hungry and in pain? If you cannot organize yourself enough to have a comfortable life then what makes you think you can tell others how to live?

Sadly quoting the Gospels or New testament really does not help as to repeat myself none of these were written during the lifetime of Jesus and the earliest was written decades after his death - most people cannot remember accurately what went on 24 hours ago far less 24 years! Like the old testament the new one is a collection of fables and myths handed down over the decades and written by various scribes and then re-written by others. Not to mention various translations.

Not saying there is anything wrong with people believing in the son and god him/her/itself - nice to think there is a mastermind somewhere supervising our world and our personal lives, that will do nice things if asked nicely but it really does surprise me that folks in cassocks have the audacity to tell others what is moral or immoral - right or wrong on the basis that this information has been passed to them exclusivily... All that without a single solitary shred of evidence!
 
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[You know - for someone who claims be abhor bigotry, you give a d**n good impression of a religious bigot yourself.

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If that comment is not intended as a playful wind up I really cannot understand how you came to that conclusion. His arguements have been well thought through and expressed in a perfectly straight forward manner. He may be expressing a different view from some, but there has not been a shred of bigotry.
 
Re: Nickel

<< most people cannot remember accurately what went on 24 hours ago far less 24 years! >>

We live in a different age where there is no requirement to retain things because references exist all around.

However at that time people did have to retain a lot more mentally and in so doing trained their memories to retain an awful lot more than we do. It is estimated that a well educated person today uses less than 5% of his potential brain power.

In the Celtic traditions of that era where there was not a written history, the "filidh" recounted the traditions which were passed down from generation to generation. This was not a haphazard event because there were held annual meetings where these stories were retold and corrected before a collection of like -educated people. They were particularly strong on genealogy as this determined hierarchies. Under the Brehon laws the King's son was not the automatic successor to his father. Any descendant of a common great grandfather had the right to be voted on by the Tuagha or clan. When you consider that polygamy was acceptable, following the family line by oral means only was a great feat of concentration and memory. However the penalty for getting it wrong, accidentally or deliberately, was death. This, as they say, concentrates the mind - and encourages cross-checking with your mates.

This practice I am sure was widespread at the time and could explain why details were reproduced many decades after the event among Christ's followers.

John
 
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What surprises me most about the Da Vinci Code is how many people have missed the fact that it clearly states that it is a work of fiction.

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Unlike much of the Bible which is presented as "truth"!
 
Well that's actually a bit of a misunderstanding.

The Bible is an Inspired [as in, by God] account of God's relationship by Man. It is not meant to be a history, or a scientific treatise.
 
Its a sign of the times, isn't it. If some of the uninformed, bigoted criticisms of the Catholic Church and its leaders made on this forum had been made instead of, say, Islam, this thread would have been pulled and Das Boot and others would be facing charges.
 
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Could you please say in what way any of my statements have been misinformed or bigotted?

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How about
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Perhaps .. and very much like the rest of Mathew,Mark, Luke & John! Lets face it there were scores of gospels etc out there and the churches of the time selected, edited and amended the ones that suited their own personal agendas and got rid of the ones they did'nt like. The net consequence was that Christianity became very different from what it's inspiror intended.

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That is a load of nonsense - for example. How can you tell "what it's inspiror intended". You know nothing significant about the life of Jesus that hasn't been passed by the very process you are lambasting.
 
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If that comment is not intended as a playful wind up I really cannot understand how you came to that conclusion. His arguements have been well thought through and expressed in a perfectly straight forward manner. He may be expressing a different view from some, but there has not been a shred of bigotry.

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I take it from that that you agree with his position.

I don't believe any un-biased person reading Jimi's postings would regard him as unbiased. His postings have exhibited a strongly anti-church bias.

For an argument to be well thought through it needs to be based on reasonably accurate facts. Jimi's clearly aren't.
 
I think Jimi displays an admirable cynicism for the church which is probably shared by many, but certainly not all. He hasn't posted anything which I find offensive. You have to accept a balance of views in a debate, not just your own.
 
I am not lambasting any process merely pointing out historical fact.

Which particular facts are you disputing?. T

he view that the bible is the inspired Word of God is not a fact but a viewpoint dependant on your particular perspective.

The history of the origin of the church is fact, The development of the bible is fact. My opinion of the Pope's achievemnts is subjective because no one yet has come up with any facts that indicate he made a great contribution to the greater good.

Perhaps a reasoned argument may be more persuasive than an unfounded attack on my bigotry?

Over to you.
 
Live and let live with religion

At the start of this lot I decided not to bite at this, however
I agree with Tome - it is all open for debate. I don't see Jimi's post have been offensive other than to question some peoples views.

Let's face it there are no right or wrongs with religion, (other than they have lead to the odd war or two) nought can be proven, whatever people believe, the ritual worship people enjoy or feel comfort from is generally harmless and should be a matter of choice to suit the flavour of their God (or even flat earth society).

There is nothing in the form of proof to convert or convice me there is a higher being (appears the same goes for a few others on here) so preaching or quoting bible scriptures won't do the job.

We don't need to have a religious badge or go to church to be decent folk. It does P me off when I'm told Church going Christians are better people though..

Anyway me boats back in the water so I'm not grumpy anymore. Neptune appears to have agreed to let her float this morning so that's good enough for me.

Ian
 
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I think Jimi displays an admirable cynicism for the church which is probably shared by many, but certainly not all. He hasn't posted anything which I find offensive. You have to accept a balance of views in a debate, not just your own.

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The only thing I find offensive about Jimi's posts is his total inability to put the apostrophe in the right place in don't /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

What I pointed out to him is the inconsistency of his condemnation of "bigotry" and has extremely anti-catholic position expressed in some of his posting.
 
I do'nt have an extremely anti catholic postion or an anti catholic stance at all. Which particular statement indicated that?
 
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The history of the origin of the church is fact, The development of the bible is fact. My opinion of the Pope's achievemnts is subjective because no one yet has come up with any facts that indicate he made a great contribution to the greater good.

Perhaps a reasoned argument may be more persuasive than an unfounded attack on my bigotry?

Over to you.

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Hey Jimi - I'd never dream of attacking your bigotry.

You did however make statements about the intentions of Jesus which I am waiting for you to substantiate.
 
Ok try a few of these biblical statments
too busy at work to get exact quotes but from memory but hopefully you get the gist.

It is easier for a rich man to pass through the eye of a needle than enter the kingdom of heaven

Render unto Caesar what is Ceasars

The meek shall inherit the earth

A new commandment Love your neighbour

He who is first shall be last

Parable of the good SAmaritan

Where 2 or 3 gather together in my name etc..

Chucking the moneylendrers out the temple

Lambasting (good word) Pharisees (established Judaic priestood) as whited sepulchres (ie looks good from the outside, inside corrupt) and hypocrites

My take on this is, within its historical religious and political context is that this radical messianic evangelist called Jesus wished people to alter their way of doing things ie move from the Judaistic focus on obedience to a very srict code and ritual to a more thinking carey sharey way of living.

My analogy with Marx and Communism was not intended to indicate that Jesus was the first communist but drawing the parallel that Marx was an idealist whereas the reality of Stalinist Russia using Marx and Engels as inspiration was very different.
 
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Ok try a few of these biblical statments


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You're missing the point of my comments.

All your quotations are from the bible, and you've already claimed that the bible has been substantially edited by the church. The implication of your posting being that the bible as we know it does not accurately reflect the teachings of Jesus.

The extent to which one particular group's actions reflect the teaching of the bible is a totally different issue
 
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