What signals and who has right of way

[timbartlett]

Couldn't have put it better. Make the move early enough and Colregs don't even come into it.

How do you know that altering course to port will reduce the risk of collision with a vessel on your port side unless you have established that there is a risk of collision if you don't alter course?

You could be making matters worse, rather than better!

But if you have established that there is a risk of collision before you alter course, then the rules do apply, and explicitly tell you not to alter course!

Not only that, but even if the situation develops far enough to reach the stage at which the stand-on vessel is allowed to give way, the one thing that the rules tell you not to do is to alter course to port!

 

[John100156]

Boat is miles away, sitting constantly on a stanchion, few degrees turn to port, sees her moving very slowly off constant bearing toward the bow. Cup of tea brought up by first mate laced with rum, officer on watch on 'give way' vessel returns to his nap. All are at peace with the world.

Unless he's a raggie, then you stand-on altering your speed to keep him on a constant bearing, as you close, slip in and out of planning mode to create the largest possible wake that you can.

Just kidding, I always treat them very gently, honest..... I even dragged one back to Gib marina once that lost his prop in the straits, sorry guys, but there was no wind, what else could I do......

 

[PaulGooch]

How do you know that altering course to port will reduce the risk of collision with a vessel on your port side unless you have established that there is a risk of collision if you don't alter course?

You could be making matters worse, rather than better!

But if you have established that there is a risk of collision before you alter course, then the rules do apply, and explicitly tell you not to alter course!

Not only that, but even if the situation develops far enough to reach the stage at which the stand-on vessel is allowed to give way, the one thing that the rules tell you not to do is to alter course to port!

So, i spot a ship on radar many miles away and calculate that on our present course, a collision will most likely occur at some point. I'm the stand on vessel, so under colregs, i'm not allowed to alter course ?

But, i was planning to alter course in about a mile, as soon as i've passed the shallow sandbar i'm currently running parallel to. Does this mean i have to continue on my present course until i get closer the the large ship, wait for him to change course and then do a 180° turn, go back the way i came for several miles and head off to where i was intending to go ?

According to your interpretation above, it must be so. But that would be clearly ludicrous. What i, and several others are saying, is that if we spotted a ship in the distance (not at close quarters), where we considered a risk of collision might (might) occur if we kept on our current course, we would make a change of course to avoid such a condition ever being allowed to develop. I don't believe that puts me in contravention of colregs, unless you take the rules literally to a ridiculous degree.

 

[oceanfroggie]

Two mobos = 7 pages of thread

Now at night an active 50m fishing trawler broken down with its gear out VNUC just about to be towed by another stationary 50m trawler with tow line connected, being overtaken by a large 100m tall ship under sail VCD in a narrow fjord but with fishing lines out and shape yet with a pilot on board as a yellow light appears between the two, and OW on the tow vessel spots the Lough Ness monster ahead on its annual migration south would be worth a few bytes! Tongue in cheek.

 

[PaulGooch]

Two mobos = 7 pages of thread

Now at night an active 50m fishing trawler broken down with its gear out VNUC just about to be towed by another stationary 50m trawler with tow line connected, being overtaken by a large 100m tall ship under sail VCD in a narrow fjord but with fishing lines out and shape yet with a pilot on board as a yellow light appears between the two, and OW on the tow vessel spots the Lough Ness monster ahead on its annual migration south would be worth a few bytes! Tongue in cheek.

You don't say which way the tall ship is travelling, so it's hard to say if the Lough Ness Monster is give way of stand on.

 

[timbartlett]

Boat is miles away, sitting constantly on a stanchion, few degrees turn to port, sees her moving very slowly off constant bearing toward the bow. Cup of tea brought up by first mate laced with rum, officer on watch on 'give way' vessel returns to his nap. All are at peace with the world....

OOW saw a small contact on his 25kilowatt, 28-inch screen, ARPA and AIS-equipped radar. It was ten miles away, on his starboard bow, and ARPA said it would pass a mile or so clear ahead. He alters course five to starboard to widen the gap. Six or seven minutes later, the ARPA alarm goes off. The small contact is now at five miles, and on a collision course! ARPA tells him that it has altered course to port. Scanning the sea for a sign of what is happening, the OOW eventually spots a tiny white motor boat.

"Silly Bugger" he thinks. WTF is he playing at? Shall I alter even more to starboard (as the colregs require)? But what if he alters to port again?

What was a perfectly ordinary stress-free encounter has turned into one in which the OOW sees his livelihood going up in smoke. Meanwhile, the motorboat skipper carries on, sipping his rum and convinced that the colregs don't apply to people like him.

 

[timbartlett]

So, i spot a ship on radar many miles away and calculate that on our present course, a collision will most likely occur at some point. I'm the stand on vessel, so under colregs, i'm not allowed to alter course ?

Rule17 only applies to vessels "in sight"of one another. So if you've only detected him by radar, then no. And it doesn't apply if there is no risk of collision. Legal precedent suggests that "no risk of collision" exists at more than 6 miles. For big, fast-moving ships that might be subject to review at some stage, but at the moment it still stands at six.

But, i was planning to alter course in about a mile, as soon as i've passed the shallow sandbar i'm currently running parallel to. Does this mean i have to continue on my present course ....

According to your interpretation above, it must be so. But that would be clearly ludicrous.

Not necessarily. In the UK, the relevant legal precedent was set in the Roanoke case in 1908, when the judge said:-
In my judgement, "course and speed" mean course and speed in following the nautical manoeuvre in which, to the knowledge of the other vessel, the vessel is at the time engaged. it is not difficult to give many instances which support this view. The 'course' certainly does not mean the actual compass direction of the heading of the vessel at the time the other is sighted… A vessel bound to keep her course and speed may be obliged to reduce her speed to avoid some danger of navigation, and the question must be in each case 'is the manoeuvre in which the vessel is engaged an ordinary and proper manoeuvre in the course of navigation which will require an alteration of course and speed;ought the other vessel to be aware of the manoeuvre which is being attempted to be carried out?

So if it was obvious that you would be altering course to go through the sandbank, (eg if you were following a marked channel) it would be fine.

What i, and several others are saying, is that if we spotted a ship in the distance (not at close quarters), where we considered a risk of collision might (might) occur if we kept on our current course, we would make a change of course to avoid such a condition ever being allowed to develop. I don't believe that puts me in contravention of colregs, unless you take the rules literally to a ridiculous degree.

Very few small craft have the means to decide whether a risk of collision exists "in the distance". So, IMHO, by the time we have decided that there is a risk of collision, it is almost certainly too late to invoke the "long range" exemption from Rule17. And the fact that so many people then seem to be advocating the course of action (altering to port) that is specifically discouraged by R17 seems to me to be as distinctly perverse as going round a roundabout the wrong way!

 

[awol]

Not necessarily. In the UK, the relevant legal precedent was set in the Roanoke case in 1908, when the judge said:-
In my judgement, "course and speed" mean course and speed in following the nautical manoeuvre in which, to the knowledge of the other vessel, the vessel is at the time engaged. it is not difficult to give many instances which support this view. The 'course' certainly does not mean the actual compass direction of the heading of the vessel at the time the other is sighted… A vessel bound to keep her course and speed may be obliged to reduce her speed to avoid some danger of navigation, and the question must be in each case 'is the manoeuvre in which the vessel is engaged an ordinary and proper manoeuvre in the course of navigation which will require an alteration of course and speed;ought the other vessel to be aware of the manoeuvre which is being attempted to be carried out?

Woohoo! So short tacking up a channel in front of DAKA is "maintaining course and speed". My cup runneth over!

 

[MapisM]

And the fact that so many people then seem to be advocating the course of action (altering to port) that is specifically discouraged by R17 seems to me to be as distinctly perverse as going round a roundabout the wrong way!

Well, since some people have done what R17 discourages for decades and never had (or created) any sort of problem, you might wish to review your example.
I'm also pretty sure none that not only myself, but also the other perverts around here have never driven as you suggest, and never will.
Apropos, none of us so far told that those who stick religiously to colregs also with supertankers are idiots or perverts.

 

[PaulGooch]

OOW saw a small contact on his 25kilowatt, 28-inch screen, ARPA and AIS-equipped radar. It was ten miles away, on his starboard bow, and ARPA said it would pass a mile or so clear ahead. He alters course five to starboard to widen the gap. Six or seven minutes later, the ARPA alarm goes off. The small contact is now at five miles, and on a collision course! ARPA tells him that it has altered course to port. Scanning the sea for a sign of what is happening, the OOW eventually spots a tiny white motor boat.

Rule17 only applies to vessels "in sight"of one another. So if you've only detected him by radar, then no. And it doesn't apply if there is no risk of collision. Legal precedent suggests that "no risk of collision" exists at more than 6 miles. For big, fast-moving ships that might be subject to review at some stage, but at the moment it still stands at six.

Erm ..... ?

 

[timbartlett]

Woohoo! So short tacking up a channel in front of DAKA is "maintaining course and speed". My cup runneth over!

"ought the other vessel to be aware of the manoeuvre which is being attempted to be carried out?"

Most motor boat skippers are probably aware of the fact that sailing boats often go in zig zags, but (personally) I am not convinced that they are necessarily "aware of the manoeuvre which is being attempted to be carried out?"

So maybe the answer is yes, but with caution!

 

[timbartlett]

Well, since some people have done what R17 discourages for decades and never had (or created) any sort of problem, you might wish to review your example.
I'm also pretty sure none that not only myself, but also the other perverts around here have never driven as you suggest, and never will.
Apropos, none of us so far told that those who stick religiously to colregs also with supertankers are idiots or perverts.

perverse showing a deliberate and obstinate desire to behave in a way that is unreasonable or unacceptable.
pervert a person whose sexual behaviour is regarded as abnormal and unacceptable.

I believe there was a case a few years ago in which a paediatrician was lynched because some people thought the word sounded a bit like paedophile.

I did not suggest that you (or anyone else) was a pervert, but I think I have demonstrated quite clearly that altering course to port when you are the stand-on vessel is in direct contravention of Rule 17. You have made your reasons for doing so perfectly clear. I understand and to some extent sympathise with them. I do not agree with you, because I think R17 includes plenty of safeguards against the (rare) occasions on which a Give way vessel fails to honour its obligations.

But neither your opinion nor mine can alter the fact that the rule says what it says, and that your choice of action contravenes it.

 

[timbartlett]

Erm ..... ?

If I understood the question I would try to answer it.

 

[timbartlett]

As a matter of interest (well, I found it interesting, anyway) I stumbled across a google books extract from a book that was first published nearly ninety years ago, called "The Rules of the Road at Sea" by W.H.Laboyteaux, who wrote:
"The definite and precise duty to keep her course and speed is imposed on the holding on vessel. Failure to observe this rule is as much a fault as is the failure of the giving way vessel to keep clear"
Laboyteaux seems to have been the Cockroft and Lameijer of his day, because he cites several court judgements to support his view, including:
- "Signalling upon some theory of "courtesy" instead of in conformity to rule, had much to do with the confusion which brought both vessels into trouble... "
and
- "It will thus be seen that the Pokomoke's master, by what he in his evidence termed a matter of courtesy, was proceeding in utter violation of all rules and regulations,... "

 

[jfm]

OOW saw a small contact on his 25kilowatt, 28-inch screen, ARPA and AIS-equipped radar. It was ten miles away, on his starboard bow, and ARPA said it would pass a mile or so clear ahead. He alters course five to starboard to widen the gap. Six or seven minutes later, the ARPA alarm goes off. The small contact is now at five miles, and on a collision course! ARPA tells him that it has altered course to port. Scanning the sea for a sign of what is happening, the OOW eventually spots a tiny white motor boat.

Tim, at 10 miles and 1 mile CPA I don't think I'm convinced there is risk of collision (happy to stand corrected on that) and I would in the mobo here stand on (not because the rules tell me to, because I want to and there's no benefit in doing otherwise). Maybe add 2 knots for a few minutes (yeah, I know that would technically constitute not standing on...). Alternatively if the CPA were say <.5m I would alter to port at this v early stage. If my ARPA/AIS trail then showed the ship going starboard I would resume my earlier course, and add 5 knots (I don't like the idea of reducing speed in this situation). I can see where you're arguing from but (a) I think the situation you describe can easily be dealt with and (b) you cannot just ignore the fact that in this situation and if CPA is very small the harsh fact is that we moboers know the ships often stnad on and at 10miles we can't tell the difference between the standoners and the steer starboarders.

 

[MapisM]

perverse showing a deliberate and obstinate desire to behave in a way that is unreasonable or unacceptable.
pervert a person whose sexual behaviour is regarded as abnormal and unacceptable.

I believe there was a case a few years ago in which a paediatrician was lynched because some people thought the word sounded a bit like paedophile.

Point taken, sorry for my poor English.
Maybe you can enlighten me also on some meaning of "idiot" which I'm missing, since you seemed to agree with those forum pros:

Seriously, no wonder the professional seafarers web forums are full of people complaining about idiot yachtsmen who don't know the rules.

Re. your other comments, well, you demonstrated something I for one immediately recognised, to start with...
And by "rare occasions", do you mean like the one described by John100156 in his post #56?
Mind, I could mention many other similar examples - though just heard from other fellow boaters (both MoBoers and Yatties).
You know, I never had to make a last minute 360° to stbd myself. The fact that I steer to port well in advance must have something to see with that...

 

[John100156]

OOW saw a small contact on his 25kilowatt, 28-inch screen, ARPA and AIS-equipped radar. It was ten miles away, on his starboard bow, and ARPA said it would pass a mile or so clear ahead. He alters course five to starboard to widen the gap. Six or seven minutes later, the ARPA alarm goes off. The small contact is now at five miles, and on a collision course! ARPA tells him that it has altered course to port. Scanning the sea for a sign of what is happening, the OOW eventually spots a tiny white motor boat.

"Silly Bugger" he thinks. WTF is he playing at? Shall I alter even more to starboard (as the colregs require)? But what if he alters to port again?

What was a perfectly ordinary stress-free encounter has turned into one in which the OOW sees his livelihood going up in smoke. Meanwhile, the motorboat skipper carries on, sipping his rum and convinced that the colregs don't apply to people like him.

What a load of tosh, if you have to resort to the above scenario to make your point. Do you really believe that we don't do what the ColRegs say, sad that. What we do do as a matter of course, is never get into a situation where they matter. I did well over 750NM last year, busy places, to include Gib Straits where its expected you know what you are doing. In some challenging conditions in January. I can see you on your boat now, standing on and when a collision occurs saying 'well I did the right thing'. Help to get the bodies out of the water, not me, I applied the rules to the letter......

 

[timbartlett]

Tim, at 10 miles and 1 mile CPA I don't think I'm convinced there is risk of collision ...I can see where you're arguing from but (a) I think the situation you describe can easily be dealt with and (b) you cannot just ignore the fact that in this situation and if CPA is very small the harsh fact is that we moboers know the ships often stnad on and at 10miles we can't tell the difference between the standoners and the steer starboarders.

At ten miles with a 1mile CPA I agree that there is no present risk of collision -- which is why it is quite OK for the ship to make a small, barely discernible alteration to "widen the gap". But most motorboats simply do not have the means to make a realistic appraisal of the situation at that range. It would be (IMHO) perfectly legitimate for the mobo to alter course, but there would be no point in doing so, because its skipper cannot be sure whether he is heading for a collision, or not, nor can he be sure that an alteration to port will make it better -- he could be heading for a near miss, and altering to port will make it worse!

I suggest that by the time most small craft skippers are able to make an informed judgement about the risk of collision, the range is likely to be in the order of 5 miles -- give or take a bit. By that time, if there is no risk of collision, there is no need to take any evasive action, and if there is a risk of collision, then the rules say that it must be the Give Way vessel that takes action, not the Stand on vessel.

I accept as a matter of fact that many people do not conform to the letter or the spirit of the rules, and that most of them will go on getting away with it throughout their boating careers. But it is my opinion that it is very dangerous for a boating website like this to perpetuate the myth that it's quite OK to ignore the colregs.

Campaign for change, by all means. Plead for a "might is right" rule if you like. Write to the RYA. Join the Royal Institute of Navigation and get papers published in its Journal. Go to conventions and conferences. Lobby your MP or the MCA. But please, don't tell novices that they can ignore the existing rules with impunity. And even more please please, don't tell them that it is good practice to do so.

 

[timbartlett]

....I can see you on your boat now, standing on and when a collision occurs saying 'well I did the right thing'. Help to get the bodies out of the water, not me, I applied the rules to the letter....

Please go and look at what the rules actually say.

 

[John100156]

......And even more please please, don't tell them that it is good practice to do so.......

No one is telling anybody anything of the sort, but if it pleases you.....

What do you think we are in, 400ft container ships? Here"s a picture of me in my boat, I can turn it on a sixpence:-