What signals and who has right of way

[henryf]

Well that's great advice Henry. Tell the driver of a 20 foot plastic boat on an open forum, when he clearly is the give way vessel under colregs, that he should act is if he has stand on rights as a fishing boat (which he plainly doesn't) and thereby expect a 50metre steel boat (aka the stand on vessel, ffs) to alter course so as to get out of his way. I cannot believe I am reading such shoite

If any member of the public might be reading this in years to come, please do not do what Henry says. Please realise the boat about to run you down has right of way and you have an obligation to get out of the way

Are you struggling to get any action these days? Either that or you need to get the doc to alter your medication a bit.

Unless I have misunderstood the scenario, which could easily be the case as I'm not that clever, the big boat is heading towards us, the little boat is moving towards the left of the picture. If that's the case then it is already out of the path of the big boat (which is in reality some way off). So what's wrong with carrying on heading left and allowing the big boat to pass astern?

In my original, but incorrect assumption that both boats were heading towards each other my fear was that at 4 knots the little boat would in fact be turning into the path of the big boat, when it was already clear of it and a definite clear indication that it would be staying out of the way to the stbd side of the oncoming big boat would be the most sensible option.

Every day is a school day, I have learned much from this forum and continue to do so. Possibly you might try to learn some manners and civility. At no point did I suggest any stand on rights as a fishing boat. I was suggesting keeping out of the way.


Henry

 

[jfm]

Are you struggling to get any action these days? Either that or you need to get the doc to alter your medication a bit.

Unless I have misunderstood the scenario, which could easily be the case as I'm not that clever, the big boat is heading towards us, the little boat is moving towards the left of the picture. If that's the case then it is already out of the path of the big boat (which is in reality some way off). So what's wrong with carrying on heading left and allowing the big boat to pass astern?

In my original, but incorrect assumption that both boats were heading towards each other my fear was that at 4 knots the little boat would in fact be turning into the path of the big boat, when it was already clear of it and a definite clear indication that it would be staying out of the way to the stbd side of the oncoming big boat would be the most sensible option.

Every day is a school day, I have learned much from this forum and continue to do so. Possibly you might try to learn some manners and civility. At no point did I suggest any stand on rights as a fishing boat. I was suggesting keeping out of the way.


Henry

No lack of civility and manners intended on my part Henry, just firm language to make an important point strongly. I apologise for any offence, and I honestly think you need to remember this is a forum and grow some thicker skin.

You wrote, even after you had sorted out that it was a crossing situation, "He [the big boat] passes astern of you making any necessary adjustment to ensure your comfort and avoid any fishing tackle you might have out, (at 4 knots in the open sea you assume some sort of fishing activity is taking place)" which reads to me as if you're saying (i) that the big boat has some kind of give way obligation due to your statement he will make a course adjustment, and (ii) that a 4 knotter will be assumed by others to be fishing. That needed correcting, imho.

Best wishes

 

[jfm]

Yes, there is no such theing as "Right of Way". With due respect to JFM, the words "Right of Way vessel" are actually longer than the words "Stand On vessel", so they are not really "shorthand". They do, however, give the misleading impression that not altering course is a "right" or privilege that is yours to give away. It isn't: it's an obligation. No matter how irksome it may be, standing on in circumstances that require you to do so is just as much a requirement of the rules as keeping a lookout or displaying thecorrect lights.

Sheesh, another traffic warden. Since you seem to be having a "precision" day with no shorthand or corner cutting allowed, and you're allowing me no credit for the fact I even fully declared in my post 3 that I was using shorthand, I would like to point out that my post (#3) didn't even contain the phrase "Right of Way vessel". Your letter counting analysis is therefore flawed Tim and I wont be paying this particular parking ticket on that technicality

 

[henryf]

No lack of civility and manners intended on my part Henry, just firm language to make an important point strongly. I apologise for any offence, and I honestly think you need to remember this is a forum and grow some thicker skin.

You wrote, even after you had sorted out that it was a crossing situation, "He [the big boat] passes astern of you making any necessary adjustment to ensure your comfort and avoid any fishing tackle you might have out, (at 4 knots in the open sea you assume some sort of fishing activity is taking place)" which reads to me as if you're saying (i) that the big boat has some kind of give way obligation due to your statement he will make a course adjustment, and (ii) that a 4 knotter will be assumed by others to be fishing. That needed correcting, imho.

Best wishes

No problem. I've just come back from Thailand so am in a non confrontational vibe at the moment.

My reference to fishing tackle and comfort was more a courteous thing on the part of the big boat. I was putting myself in their shoes when I typed it. I'm always conscious of wash on smaller boats pottering about doing a bit of fishing and if a tweak of the wheel or couple of pushes on the auto pilot buttons put a few extra yards between us then so much the better.

All the best

Henry

 

[timbartlett]

Sheesh, another traffic warden. Since you seem to be having a "precision" day with no shorthand or corner cutting allowed, and you're allowing me no credit for the fact I even fully declared in my post 3 that I was using shorthand, I would like to point out that my post (#3) didn't even contain the phrase "Right of Way vessel". Your letter counting analysis is therefore flawed Tim and I wont be paying this particular parking ticket on that technicality

John,
Fair point. But "Right of Way" is still longer than "stand on" even if you omit the word "vessel"!

More seriously, my concern with the widespread use of "Right of Way " as a "shorthand" for "stand on" or to avoid "technicality" is that it masks the fundamental distinction between a "right" and a "responsibility". As soon as people start thinking that standing on is a right or a privilege, then they miss the point that it is compulsory.

It's like suggesting that I have the right to pay tax rather than an obligation!

 

[jfm]

Tim it's my keyboard, fingertips and RSI so if I want to type Jimmy Le Constructeur not Jimmy the Builder as "shorthand" (and in admiration of his forthcoming move to France) I will!

I do agree your point that it would be bad if folks didn't know that standing on is indeed an obligation until that bit of rule 17 bites. The OP was about who should get out of the way and I suppose I wrote in a manner that assumed folks on here know about stnading on. But yes I do see your point and but for the technicality (phew!) I owe you the 60 quid Forums eh?

You don't by any chance happen to know if the white van or the blue one is VAT paid do you?

 

[timbartlett]

You don't by any chance happen to know if the white van or the blue one is VAT paid do you?

Knowing my luck, if I had bought either of them, I would expect HMRC to insist that it was the other one

 

[MapisM]

Geez, what a debate...! Ok folks, I'll tell you what I'll do.
I'll quietly stick to my blameworthy practice of steering to port when I am a stand on vessel approaching commercial traffic.
If and when I'll receive a call from a confused captain, complaining that I'm not sticking to my course, I'll let you know. Honest!
It never happened to me in the last quarter of a century, but you never know...

 

[John100156]

I have added these rules to my book:-

1) Is he bigger than me? If yes, move to 2)
2) If we collide who is more likely to sink, if me, move to 3) if him move to 3)
3) Make a positive move - get the heck out of his way in good time......

A few degrees to port early on, often does the trick....

Life is simply too short, but not half as short as your boat will be if you hit him....

 

[MYAG]

Geez, what a debate...! Ok folks, I'll tell you what I'll do.
I'll quietly stick to my blameworthy practice of steering to port when I am a stand on vessel approaching commercial traffic.
If and when I'll receive a call from a confused captain, complaining that I'm not sticking to my course, I'll let you know. Honest!
It never happened to me in the last quarter of a century, but you never know...

+1

 

[timbartlett]

Seriously, no wonder the professional seafarers web forums are full of people complaining about idiot yachtsmen who don't know the rules.

Can anyone please explain to me why people are so resolutely opposed to the idea of abiding by the colregs?

 

[jfm]

Seriously, no wonder the professional seafarers web forums are full of people complaining about idiot yachtsmen who don't know the rules.

Can anyone please explain to me why people are so resolutely opposed to the idea of abiding by the colregs?

Tis tricky Tim. I'm with MapisM and MYAG, and would nudge to port but do it very early (as would they)

Problem is there are two sorts of pro seafarers - those who just stand on when they are givey way, and those you refer to. We cannot tell which is which. But I have in the past stood on when the other steel 50m superyacht is the give wayer, and they haven't given way with the result it has got too close for comfort. Specifically twice that i can remember, and once was on Match last summer when some forumites might have been with me (JTB maybe?)

The nudge to port that we're talking about is like 5 degrees and I don't think the big ship would get too narked about that. I do accept it is contrary to the letter of colregs of course.

 

[semisimple]

The nudge to port that we're talking about is like 5 degrees and I don't think the big ship would get too narked about that. I do accept it is contrary to the letter of colregs of course.

Well as a yottie I'd be damned lucky to be steering within 5 degrees at any one instant

(Thanks Tim for the link - it makes it very clear, I remember an old skipper I had who would bang on about being predictable...so much that we wanted to throw him over the side).

 

[MapisM]

Seriously, no wonder the professional seafarers web forums are full of people complaining about idiot yachtsmen who don't know the rules.

See, I happen to know personally (not through forums) a few of these pros.
And all of them, bar none, are quite happy to see stand on pleasure boats steering to port, passing them astern.
They actually expect that, sort of. And not because they don't know the colregs, or because they assume that the other helmsman doesn't.
It's just because that's the most logical and intuitive thing to do, and it works - effectively and safely.
That said, I can see why this way of sorting maritime traffic is not included in colregs, and never will: it would be impossible to draw the line between pleasure/smallish and commercial/biggish stuff.
This doesn't seem to bother those with a pinch of salt, though. Not in real world, anyway.
And then there are forum debates, of course - whether on this or other forums, it doesn't really matter.
You'll always find people complaining about how idiot anyone else is...

 

[MapisM]

Well as a yottie I'd be damned lucky to be steering within 5 degrees at any one instant

Hang on, and you said that being predictable is the most important thing...?!?
In your boots, I'd rather join our club of idiots who don't know the rules, rather than testing them with anything built in thick steel and with a bow possibly taller than your mast...!

 

[John100156]

I was crossing the straits of Gib in Feb 2008, I have my YM Theory and was with an experienced YM Instructor at the time. We were confronted with a broadly similar situation, I said to him well before an event (I always keep a good watch), I think I'll just nudge us a few degrees to port, he said naah just stand on he may give way, like sh#t did he, my experienced YM Instructors advice as we closed, 360 towards STB, his advice after we passed when I said that we could easily have avoided that, you're the skipper John, you should have done what you thought was right. Lesson learned.

So often a simple early adjustment can avoid a lot of trouble later, don't get stuck in a rut, understand the regs thoroughly as I think I do, they are important if very close, but don't expect it to go just as you expect, all of the time.

I think it was in 2010 in Hurricanes Princess 67 that we were doing a night voyage and a 400ft cargo vessel we were monitoring CPA did precisely that, a few degrees to port as I recall.... Just as we were about to go STB as give way. It would have been very comforting to know that we did precisely what the ColRegs said as we sank in the darkness of the night, mind you, we would have left a nasty white scuff on his paintwork..... Had Mike survived, Mary would have killed him.

Just two crude examples that spring to mind.....

 

[MYAG]

...........................................
Can anyone please explain to me why people are so resolutely opposed to the idea of abiding by the colregs?

We're not, dont be ridiculous: The point is, and its the only point I and others like MapisM and JFM have made here, is if its done early enough and only early enough so as not to even create the slightest possibility of a crossing situation, (Radar/AIS can give you a great heads up) the rule(s) everyone is banging on about dont even come in to it, 15, 17, 2 whatever etc; so it can't be contrary to any letter of the colregs.... unless you can think of one, I cant.

Or should I never change course anywhere just in case I might be the stand on vessel to another vessel approaching 500 miles away! Sheeeeesh! (or is that being ridiculous too??)

 

[PaulGooch]

We're not, dont be ridiculous: The point is, and its the only point I and others like MapisM and JFM have made here, is if its done early enough and only early enough so as not to even create the slightest possibility of a crossing situation, (Radar/AIS can give you a great heads up) the rule(s) everyone is banging on about dont even come in to it, 15, 17, 2 whatever etc; so it can't be contrary to any letter of the colregs.... unless you can think of one, I cant.

Or should I never change course anywhere just in case I might be the stand on vessel to another vessel approaching 500 miles away! Sheeeeesh! (or is that being ridiculous too??)

Couldn't have put it better. Make the move early enough and Colregs don't even come into it.

 

[MapisM]

if its done early enough and only early enough so as not to even create the slightest possibility of a crossing situation...

I fully agree of course, but what Tim said is that by the time you perceive a risk of collision that is sufficient to make you think you want to alter course, then Rule17 has already kicked in enough to make standing on compulsory.
If we take this literally, we shouldn't steer a few degrees to port no matter how far we are from the other vessel.
It's a sort of catch 22, in fact: if there isn't any risk of collision, why steer to port? And if the risk exists, we can't steer to port anymore.

Whatever. I don't care if I'm not 100% colreg compliant with my behaviour.
It always worked for me, and I've yet to hear a give way ship shouting at me on the VHF because I steered to port, allowing them to hold their course.
As I said, if and when that will happen, I'll post about that, hanging my head in shame...

 

[semisimple]

Or should I never change course anywhere just in case I might be the stand on vessel to another vessel approaching 500 miles away! Sheeeeesh! (or is that being ridiculous too??)

Ah but the rules take care of that (although I agree with you about a few degrees to port. No one will notice and a potential collision course will be avoided).

Rules 11-18 apply (only) to vessels in sight of one another.

'In sight' is defined as "Vessels shall be deemed to be in sight of one another only when one can be observed visually from the other."

Hang on, and you said that being predictable is the most important thing...?!?
In your boots, I'd rather join our club of idiots who don't know the rules, rather than testing them with anything built in thick steel and with a bow possibly taller than your mast...!

Hey hey, I am being predictable...I steer to the wind!