What should the budget be?

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Is a generator on board really necessary and what about water maker? Lets assume for the moment we are in the med.

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The short answer is no. A generator IMHO (and I have one) provides a lot of more pain than gain. Go for solar panels; cheaper and almost no maintenance. If you stay in the Med, I would not install a water maker; I rate that 'nice to have' but not essential. You can get water ashore reasonably easy in most places, except some islands in the Aegean.

Regarding your budget; you are presently (south coast UK) in one of the most expensive places on earth for yachting. I have only been able to spend more money on Long Island, New York and NE Sardinia. If your budget is GBP 25,000; you will live very comfortably in most parts of the Med, and especially the eastern Med, even if you take out a year marina contract. Which you should not do, because there are soooooo many nice free anchorages.
 
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Lets assume for the moment we are in the med.

[/ QUOTE ] There is a very big difference in costs, and ability to live at anchor between W Med and E Med (Greece/Turkey).

In Greece large parts of the boat fraternity still live in a pre marina economy. There are a quite a lot of places where it's possible in winter to berth up afloat safely with nearby water supplies, even connect to electricity, with excellent shelter, without berthing costs. That's a very cheap option with a good convenience factor. There are similar possibilities in Turkey, but with small visa complications (90 day limits).

In the Ionian, and near Athens, and around Bodrum you'll also find good yacht support for the more complex needs - Stainless fabrication, sailmaking, even electronic servicing.

A £20k pa budget will be adequate in the East for a £70,000 yacht, even though less convenient and more expensive for trips back to UK or where-ever. My total berthing/fuel/electric/water costs dropped from £4,000 pa in 2001 in W med (those were the days! probably 50% up now), to an average of £2,300 over the following 4 years in the E Med, but I did use marinas more frequently than you plan to. I could afford them in the E Med!

And security, away from the Athens shoreline, is not an issue in Greece.
 
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There are similar possibilities in Turkey, but with small visa complications (90 day limits).

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A small clarification, Jim: the 90 day visa limit relates to the crew and is the basic rule. If you have a marina contract that is longer than 90 days, your Turkish visa will be as long as your contract period.

A yacht can stay for 359 days on one transit log. Then you sail to one of the Greek islands for a day. When you return, the boat can stay another year in Turkey. This can be repeated unlimited times. Again, this is not necessary if you have a yearly marina contract, then the boat can stay as long as you have a valid contract.
 
Hi dave, we are heading for the azores in May, possibly for a year or two, at least a year to start with. Looking to buy a small property over there if the price is right. its a sort of plan for later life, and to let out to other yotties..
We are also seriously thinking of getting portugese citizenship, again will see when we get there. after the Azores, probably canaries, then over to Canada.. but thats a loooong way off yet.. Wouldnt mind getting a 45 foot cheapo grp hull and sinking it in the ground on one of the outer islands lol... sort of eco den....
There were several of us today talking re boat size.. heres our take...
the biggest leap is a house to a boat... the perception of needed space is oft distorted... it is very probable that most would be just as comfortable in a smaller boat after a few years, and often IS the case. the bay you are in, the anchorage or the marina even is your yard... a bed is to sleep in (err mainly lol).. most find a BED ROOM is not needed, your perception WILL change. the galley - kitchen, we can cook everything we need and can entertain on 2 rings, grill and oven.. we managed a full english trad xmas dinner last year for 4, could have fed 6.. you dont need the kitchen that you once had in most cases.
Lounge areas... saloons.. so long as you can sit comfortably, or lounge around, then what else do you need ?. SOme of the modern caravans with keels are, well, caravans with keels lol..
Loo area, same goes, we had a beautiful triple size Jaccuzi in the last house, huge bathroom, shower area, dual sinks etc.. dont miss any off it. Good light and ventilation is more important to me, a pilot house has spoilt me, no going back now..
A lot of the things we thought we wanted in a house were really signs of the bigger and better distorted mentality in the western world.. and to be honest, it was an attempt to make up for an otherwise crappy life before even if dosh was no problem for us.
I would never personally drag around extra loos, sleeping areas etc just in case auntie flo or offspring came to visit, they can rough it or get a hotel lol..
Going "out", ie, paying for, meals, drinkie poos etc.. not for us on the whole, the cockpit, saloon, or a picnic packed on the bike carrier is a better and cheaper, and more enjoyable option shared with soul mate or friends.. I have never (that I can recollect) bought a coffee whilst out and about as an example, I wont pay a euro or more for something that costs me virtually zilch on the boat.. I dont frequent bars, I prefer the boat, or another boat, or the beach or whatever to socialise, and again it is cheaper. I dont know where some get a figure of X% of a boats "value" for maintnance ????.. how. ??? .. yes, things need replacing, but not always with new, things can be repaired, sometimes much improved, commercial gear (ie trawler stuff) for anchoring is better than polished stainless gizmos, and cheaper, stayloc terminals only need cores and wire, ss wire is not expensive, why throw away the old terminal due to age etc.. sails can be recut, second hand sails can be bought. engines dont need replacing in the normal scheme of things.. you often hear people quote allow budget of 10k for replacement engine in older boat etc... bull excrement in most cases, rebuild it.. some say, ah but no parts, yes there is, and what isnt readilly available can be made.. my engine, for example, is a 50´s designed Mercedes, you can buy, adapt, make or modify and keep it going indefinitely. Buy antifouling from the fishermens stores, most paint on a boat, seldom needed but sometimes can be simple stuff, not high tech... a stitch in time is also a good thing, proper upkeep of parts will increase life... dont buy multiplat mooring lines cos they look nice coiled on the jetty of a south coast marina, but what is cheap in nylon.. 14mm 4 strand 100mtrs nylon for 40 quid here, its not brilliant white, but neither is the boat lol.. we have in stock 200 mtrs of 14 mm nylon and 100 mtrs of 16mm polyprop.., buy running rigging where its cheap and of the quality you want, learn to splice and finish, dont pay others, and its more rewarding. If you cant get a gasket for the old outboard, make one, again the local trawler emporium sells all the best gasket materials icluding the modern impregnated fibre stuff. dont buy a dinghy "repair " kit, but a square mtr of the material used and some glue and make yer own patchs and to reinforce vulnerable areas.. try not to buy anything at all with the name or term "marine", this just means rip off normally and often simple products do the same job. the list is endless..
You seem to be doing sterling research, keep it up, its the way to bounce ideas and thoughts.. soak it all up like a big sponge, share it with swmbo and digest, then make your own mind up, people can only suggest, you will ultimately make the decisions.

Joe Jayne n Molly
 
I have always felt secure at anchor, more secure than in a marina, where the thieving scrotes can get aboard and have done! I lock up al the time in the marina and raise the passerelle when leaving the boat or when aboard at night.
I also make the boats each side of me raise their passerelles! Even if they dont like it! (basically frighten them with stories of theft)
 
This is all making good reading and throwing up as many questions as it answers.

Am I been realistic that as a relative beginner to yachting (rya day skipper. Crew from Hull to Holland and charter in the South Ionian over the past couple of years ). That we (myself and SWMBO-great term Richard) could tackle Biscay in a Year or so?

Do flights to the South Ionian seem to shut down in winter making the UK difficult to reach ?

Where to leave the yacht if we became 'swallows'.

With regards to budgets and running costs what about new v second hand? Surely New yachts would need less repairs/maintenance (assuming we don’t trash it..lol)

Has anyone got experience of RYA theory courses and is it worth the investment ?

Fin and spade versus Keel Yachts?...oh hum. Questions questions.
 
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This is all making good reading and throwing up as many questions as it answers.

Am I been realistic that as a relative beginner to yachting (rya day skipper. Crew from Hull to Holland and charter in the South Ionian over the past couple of years ). That we (myself and SWMBO-great term Richard) could tackle Biscay in a Year or so`

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Yes, dont see why not, biscay has a few things to be wary of, but it´s no big deal, right time of year, avoid the equinoxes !, ability to receive up to date weather info, not forecasts, no worries

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Do flights to the South Ionian seem to shut down in winter making the UK difficult to reach ?

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Sorry Dave, no idea /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

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Where to leave the yacht if we became 'swallows'.

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Anywhere you want to go back to and is convenient for you

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With regards to budgets and running costs what about new v second hand? Surely New yachts would need less repairs/maintenance (assuming we don’t trash it..lol)

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a second hand yacht may well (probably WILL) need an overhaul (refit) and alterations, but after that fine, the ´new´yacht, well, it all depends on what you buy.. you have to realise the design phylosophy on most "modern" boats, weekend use, shore power, look good at boatshow with crystal glasses and tablemats lol.... design a caravan and then fit a hull around it... very very very few yachts do any serious sailing, so no need to cater for that miniscule group, very few are lived aboard full time, again, not catered for. almost any "new" yacht you buy will not be suitable as a full time liveaboard, or suitable in terms of rig, gear, sails etc for continued or thorough use. So you will have to alter your "new" yacht. Ground tackle, windlass, chain, warp, anchors, attachments, swivels almost certainly will be crap on a new boat.. work out the cost of ripping the old out and putting in the new, then the cosmetic value, and where do you put it all anyway ?. Water, fuel etc will almost certainly be limited, where are you going to put the tankage in your shiney new yott with its probably shiney plastic inner shell all carefully designed to give a house user the impression of space at the total expense of things that will be needed for your use unless you intend to plugged into umbilicals all the time. Dave and Swmbo Dave, if you really think that the average white boat will work as a full time liveaboard traveller, then think again, long n hard /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif . What about the storage space for your possesions, spares, tools, food, anchors, warps, fenders, dinghy(s) outboard(s), petrol cans, life raft, safety gear, books, dvd´s, laptops, charts, spare bedding (it needs changing sometime lol and you need spares sometimes while the others drying....) cleaning products, repair products, spare oil, filters, spare starter motor, alternator, fuel injectors, rigging wire, sail repair kit, extra fuel cans for the "crossing " etc etc etc etc ..... then you can quickly realise that what you DIDNT look at at the boat show was the actual amount of storage, and what you need, if it is your travelling home. I would suggest to you that to make an average white boat work for live aboard travelling does not cut it, they are not designed for it, and not designed for distance work or indeed comfort apart from tied to a pontoon, a quick trip to weymouth or a few g&t´s with the vicars brother and boyfriend /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif....,

mind you, lets be fair, neither are the average second hand boats, there are many that are capable of such intended use, they tend to be the ones with the smaller looking interiers, due to the fact they have more storage and tankage lol.. but when you add the cost of the boat second hand, of the right type, plus apx 50 to 100% of the cost again to make it a live aboard cruiser, and then compare these costs to the awb and the fact that you will need to spend similar amounts making THAT fit for purpose in the first place, then the older boats STILL win hands down.. IF you intend to live aboard and travel distances over a long period of time.. if you intend to sit in a marina in s spain, or greece, with the odd trip, then hey, no worries.. so the WHAT do you intend to do with it is now so important. There ARE some modern boats fit for purpose, but look at the price, the bendytoyJennHuntervaria etc, no , not generally, look at a nice new Pacific Seacraft for example.. if you got a quarter mil to blow, go for it.. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

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Has anyone got experience of RYA theory courses and is it worth the investment ?

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Yes if you have time and the instructor actually has some experience as opposed to books, also, there are lots of home study courses.. Look into Anapolis, Glennans etc as well as the rya.. all you need to be fair is an ICC, you can have that now.. but more study is a necessity, not necessarily with the rya book though. The yachtmaster theory course is fairly complete, poor on weather, but again, aimed at weekend sailors whatever they try to tell you... look at Steve and Linda Dashew´s site for probably some of the best theory manuals (dont be tempted to buy one of his boats though, he aims his market at 50 something american millionares....

[quote[Fin and spade versus Keel Yachts?...oh hum. Questions questions.

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Look for a rudder thats well supported with a skeg as opposed to a balanced spade if you intend to travel distances, a modified full keel or long fin is imho best all round for this purpose, a fin is subject to damage from ANY contact with terrafirma and the loads and potential damage passed to the structure in a contact situation is horrendous. an encapsulated shaped modified full keel is for me a far better option, cos as you know, there are those of us that have grounded hard, and those of us that are going to. The benefit of the fin spade apart form reduction of production cost is manouvrabilty, definitely much better astern, the long fin modified full etc or full will always tend to entertain you and others in marinas or stern too moorings.. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif but its a matter of practice and boathandling skill really..

ALL the above are obviously only MY opinion, for good reasons, but still my opinion. (Disclaimer lol)

Not trying to put you off, far from it, trying to make you look deeper maybe.

the real key to all this is as said.. WHAT USE DO YOU GENUINELY WANT TO MAKE OF THE BOAT.

when and if (and that really is a difficult one) you can answer that, the type of boat, space, abilities, strengths etc etc an be better suggested to you.

Sorry for all the long winded answers..
Joe Jayne n Molly
 
Yes, you're being realistic about Biscay crossing in that time, but only if you really polish up and practice your use of weather information, and make sure you've had some strong wind experiences. And if you feel nervous, borrow an experienced crew member for the trip.

Ionian charer flights shut down in winter, but Preveza to Athens is feasible by air, and by highly reliable bus services. BA do three flights a day from Athens to Heathrow, and when booked well ahead, these only cost about £70 one way, including taxes. There's some data on Athens flights on my website.

Wide choice of places and styles to leave the boat for summer swallows. As indicated above, everything from highly ethnic sledge pullouts or mud berths, to posh marinas afloat or ashore, in the Ionian, in the S Peloponese, or within easy bus/ferry range of Athens. See my website again.

New boats mean inventory and outfitting costs and depreciation. This can easily add £10k and far more to a basic price - proper anchor gear, beefed batteries, better charging arrangements, solar panels, holding tanks, extra water tanks, autopilot, VHF, liferaft . . . you mention it. Make a list of all the items you reckon you'll need, and when you start looking, tick off that check list. Most of those ticks are going to cost/gain you a grand or two, so it's very well worth it. Stuff starts going wrong after about two to three years (apart from the inevitable gaurantee faults), so you do have a maintenance holiday for some things.

Second hand is usually better value, especially if the inventory is good and the equipment well maintained. Those ticks again. If the inventory has been removed, or is not to your taste, the value drops. Ditto if the guy hasn't been keeping a maintenance log, doesn't have a reliable method of recording engine hours, doesn't know what equipment is fitted within the electrics, water, drainage, fuel, comfort systems and does not have to hand the leaflets for all those things.

Fin vs keel - do you plan to sail to windward? If not (many motor!) keels are OK. But they don't usually do 'backwards' for stern to . . . either way, cruising designs (which include fin and skeg) tend better to go straight, laying less work on the autopilot.

RYA theory is excellent; makes sure you have no serious gaps in your knowledge. Self study works for many people, but others need to be pushed by doing a course. Your choice. The theory is no substitute for experience on the water.
 
Just been reading your web site Jim which I am finding excellent thank you. I was wondering how easy it is to get someone to ‘help’ sail across Biscay.

Not only has SWMBO chosen the wrong kind of boat now she wants the bloody cats aboard! I wonder if I can get a discount on two marina berths!

What about Navtex?

Dave
 
Hi again Dave
dont worry about Biscay, just do as Jim says, The bad tales of Biscay are often exagerated, hyped and when blatently true are usually self inflicted. It becomes a bit of an Everest for UK sailors. Everywhere in the world has its Biscay.. the local frightner etc, tales of horror. There have probably been more yotty fatalities, emergencies etc on or around the solent...

Put it into proper perspective..
Biscay gain its "fearsome" reputation from...
Well, mainly wars and shipping losses..
Napolionic wars, Many sea battles in Biscay, many fulltime patrols, Many mnay losses...
WW1 and the replay WW2, same thing, also the convoys for the med and south, all weather, many losses.
Inexperienced delivery skippers on schedules or fixed price, not prepared to wait.
French yachts returning to La Rochelle area after a summer cruise, on a deadline...
Innapropriate boats, like a bendytoy 36CC... see the MAIB reports.
Drunken skippers and crew.. new yachtmasters on their first trip in ACTAULL command without the instructor.. recently one phone his instructor to ask whether he thought the yacht should appraoch a lee shore on N Spain in a gale... the instructor, at home, hundreds of miles away apparantly said yeah, should be ok... ooops.
Yachts that have inadequate weather interpretaion skills on board.
People deciding to run before a blow, only to find the blow lasted longer and they are suddenly on a lee shore with no where to go...

and the real cause of yottie problems..... panic and the desire to run and hide in a bar... their head tells them to get the hell some more westing immediately in the event of the forecast or conditions deteriorating, drop the sails if necessary at the first sign of things not as predicted or forecast to deteriorate to the SW usually, motor west at flank speed.. and stay west till its over.. then sail on...
Instead, the true reaction of many is to cut and run, yes, we can make rochelle before we get clobbered, run before etc etc, like lemmins over a cliff, but unfortuanely a reasonably human emotion when others lives are in their hands... but the most dangerous thing they can do... not just biscay, but anywhere.. if the choice is a lee shore or open water, there IS no choice, go out away from the firm stuff and the shallow stuff.


the list goes on, but follows a theme, if YOU are in control, and YOU choose when to go based on sound research and weather at the time and forecast, and updated, and you feel confident to change gear (Reef and handle a normal blow) you take a track across appropriate to the time of year.. you will have a great sail, most find they have a great motor... Mick, Orizabo, spent around 9 days I think it was becalmed, go figure, more likely to die of boredom...
I would personally be more concerned near ANY coast in a blow or with a blow forecast... its usually rocks that wipe yer bum, not water, and certainly never wind...

Navtex is a great and useful tool, I suggest that used with synoptic charts received on ssb or satphone, and the ability to interpret such, which is another fairly easy skill to aquire, that you have all the wx forecasting you need.

Watch out taking a skilled "Crew". the reason I say this is as follows.
If you want the guy there for support in decision making and planning and advice, then you are abdicating your skippers hat.
In the event of the excrement hitting the rotary oscillator, you may have to rely on his judgement and experience and go with the advice... not really too problematic.. if you want the guy / gal for that reason, then make sure they are a skipper in their own right first, they have to have experience of the decision making process when the buck stops.
Can I suggest that, first, Biscay is just another 3 day passage with careful planning and open schedules... and that if you really want the moral support of someone, hire a qualified instructor with known experience, or a delivery skipper of experience for the time it will take... I would caution against, for example, any yottmeister type who advertises his services unless he can prove his her experience and skills and provide excellent references..
 
Hi

Just read the MAIB report for Ocean Madam if that is what you where referring to. Who would have gone out in that without a death wish!!!!!

There seems an almost universal shift to lighter displacement yachts. What are peoples views in dufour yachtsI wonder.

Dave
 
Dave

If you are sensible as Captainslarty has suggested the Biscay shouldn't be a problem.

I have been an on and off liveaboard on a Dufour for a number of years and travelled a fair few miles, with no problems. If I look after her she looks after me. But certain items need to be considered, such as electrical systems need beefing up. If you want more detailed info PM me.
 
Hi Dave
Yes, I was referring to Ocean Madam, was trying to remember the name, a 390 Bendytoy, not a 36cc as I stated, the 36cc is even WORSE !! aghh.. unfortunately, the tragedy, and the MAIB comments on the typical AWB that they are NOT suitable for ocean passages where heavy weather can be enountered, and thats ANY normal ocean passage.. applies to MANY moden boats, as I have said many times over.

As for Duffers, they are generally ok, follow the same design phylisophy as the the oceanis etc, wide beam, flat bottom, fin and spade, standard rig, designed for short hops in safe areas. The design brief of these boats does not include crossing oceans, so few do it, its not on the bottom of the list even. Jayne recently delivered a bendy 46 footer something or other from Bayonna france to LC, around 300 miles.. she said it was the pits at sea.. we have friends with a small duffer a 34 I think it is, and they like it, but I found it very lacking in storage as a liveaboard boat, but they wouldnt enter my choice list in the first place.
Prior to Duffer, the GibSea brand, which is now owned by them, produced some very nice and capable boats... a good friend of mine here has a 44 foot gibsea and has done an atlantic circuit a year for the last 3 years, the boat was previously used as a training boat for zero to here yott meisters and has been through most conditions.. they are a different breed to the modern boats, still "modern" in comparison to mine say, but perfectly capable, he wouldnt swap that in terms of ability for a duffer. Many of the late 70´s to late 80´s french boats were pretty good, the bendytoy First series are particularly good, the first and the earlier gib sea´s share many features and are considered desirable offshore cruisers.

so, if I am commenting on a duffor around 42 feet say /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif, then, hmm, nice bed.... nice shiney hull..
Great for harbour and short sailing trips.. generally, yep, nice bed.

Would I have one as a liveaboard cruiser, possibly if I was intending to be permenently marina based and did a few short sails.. would I want to travel the world in one.. nope...

However, would I have a gibsea 441 for a world girdler, yes, if there was no seastream 34 available lol.. I would take a look at the seastream 43´s, if we needed more space, but we definitely dont. now there is a superb world traveller if THATS what you want to do or have the flexibility to do and be comfortable and confident.. Yes, I am bias, I dont like modern boats for my purpose, they are not suitable.. I am bias toward seastreams, cos a, I have one /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif and b, they are superbly built, superbly strong and can make a fantastic home, the boat will look after me when I tire.. the designer is still going and well respected for world travelling boats, Ian Anderson.. he has no axe to grind, as he saad to me, "we either overbuilt them then, or they dont build them correctly now"... try to find a boat built to llyods 100 A1 scantlings WITH a certificate, plenty claim..... many cant back up that claim with certification.
Joe n Jayne
 
Hi
When I said ‘who would have gone out in that ‘I was referring to the conditions not the boat. Force 9 and the continental shelf must be dangerous for ANY 39ft Yacht surly!
Yes The Dufour has a nice bed!!. To b e honest I don’t want to live my life basically ‘camping in glass fiber’. For the past 18 months I have been living in a caravan as a prelude to living on a yacht. I love the sense of freedom it gives. It is a touring van not a static so I have already broken the ties with bricks and mortar (other than from a business point of view). However I must confess it is a German built hobby larger than English vans and has a a king size bed at one end (proper mattress and everything). If all on offer was the crap English offerings I definitely would not have even bought one in the first place never mind live in it. Surly it isn’t too much to ask a bed in a yacht. If we take this to extremes I guess die hards would say if you are not sleeping in a hammock you are not serious sailors.
I did have the ‘pleasure’ of spending a week on a Jag 27 in the med and to a point it changed my perspective on what is needed in the way of accommodation in the med. However bunking down on dinette tables is ok for a week (with the right crew). The fore cabin was a non starter..too small...too HOT. The dufour does have harken winches and fully battened main or full off shore rig. No it isn’t a Halberg Rassy but life as they say is a compromise.

Chris and Elaine seem to have managed very well living on a Beneteau 310 www.kangaloosh.com

If I am honest with myself I am not sure circumnavigation is where i am at. Mooching about the med may just about do it for me. I feel the dufour should do for now. Give me space to grow so to speak.


Regards Dave
 
Dave,
as far as accomadation is concerned only you (& SWMBO) can really answer that. What is fine for some people is purgatory for others. This is difficult, but try to think what kind of sailing you are most likely to be doing, that will point you in the right direction for the type of boat. If you buy a boat built like a brick-built outhouse because you're thinking you might go round Cape Horne then you'll probably hate the boat if you stay in the Med or the Caribbean! I personally think there's a lot of tosh talked about heavy VS light displacement boats (but not on this thread, yet /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif. If you're cruising (i.e. stopping for a few weeks or so in one place then moving on) you'll actually spend about 80-85% of your time at anchor, so in my opinion you'll need some home comforts. Exactly what 'home comforts' means to you is going to be down to you, but think (if planning on warm spots) good ventilation, a galley that's user friendly and a comfortable bed, not to mention good ground tackle.
If you're mainly going to marina-hop then a light displacement boat should be fine, if you want to follow the classic trade wind route then you'll need to upgrade the boat in terms of handholds, safety equipment etc. If you're planning to be more independant when you cruise then you need to think about water/fuel tank capacity, power generation and food storeage.
The budget side of things is 'how long is a piece of string?' Do you want to insure the boat? How many visits home do you want to make?How much do you spend on food/drink at the moment? Forget eating out, what is your monthly shopping bill, that actually is a reasonable starting place for calculations (unless you regularly have smoked salmon, sirloin steaks, wine with every meal and like a bottle of Bollinger on a sunday morning). If you search the web you'll find people living on as little as £200 per month (food/drink -not mooring/insurance/maintainance) to as much as £1500/2000 per month (eating out every night, renting cars not taking buses and eating exactly the same things as they did 'at home').
With your projected budget, you'll do just fine. You may have to make a couple of 'lifestyle adjustments', but the main thing is keep track, meticulously, of everything that you spend for the first couple of months (which is a steep learning curve anyway) and see if you are staying withtin budget. The main thing is....enjoy!!! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
Based on taking a conservative 5% interest / dividend as income, you would need £500,000 to get £25,000 per year. However, you would also need some capital growth to keep pace with inflation. We're planning to have a mixture of 'safe' share investments, a little bit of slightly more risky investment for growth and cash capital. Obviously anything we don't spend in a year will sit in the pot hopefully generating more income.

Depends very much on whether you've got pensions / other guaranteed income as well - we haven't, so it will all have to come from investments and savings, hence our leaving date is still some years off! In addition, we really want to 'retire' - we both have transferable skills that we could use to attempt to get more income if really necessary but the aim is to only work if we want to, not because we need to.
 
Joe, in fairness, a modern French boat would not be our choice either, BUT,we have met a great many "Bendytoys" and "Duffers" that have made many VERY SIGNIFICANT PASSAGES and comfortable homes for their owners at an affordable price, I do find your criticism a bit extreme. /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gifBill. /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
 
Mornin' Bill
Hows sunny france, you could sunbathe here at the mo.. lurrrvely..

I stressed in many of my replies here of the need to determine the use they will put the boat to, and that is the key I think.
In my experience most of the people on modern boats DO have a great and safe trip, fully agreed, and for their purpose, a great choice. What we find though is that this is normally a short(ish) passage, a "round the world" trip, not a full time for ever type existence. There are many who take time out to do the big one, and well done to them, I have only respect for them. But they dont tend to have long term plans in using the boat for a long long time.
Horses for courses..

and, there are differing types of bendytoys, I would have no qualms living on something like a first 38, terrific boat, and many of the older designed frenchboats are fantastic, the bigger, older gibseas for example.

so, really, I havent got a downer on awb's at all, depending on the purpose they are used for they may be the absolutely best choice.

Hope the sun shines for u n ann today.. I will mail ya some if you need it..

Joe /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
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Essential pre purchase or even pre survey checks
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