what questions should i ask the broker?

[Deleted User YDKXO]

hi mike ,hope you are well and enjoying croatia , i looked at the temperature in the med , its hotter than here in taiwan at the moment , i hope your aircon is working ok. sorry to hear you are having daily problems ,its funny because mike in mallorca was just praising ferrettis and talking about you and yours and how good they were. i think i am looking to these older boats because of the space they provide for me and the family to live on board in comfort for 5-6 months ,and also they appear to be really good value (i know its a false impression )as you say its the maintainance that you have to worry about . i just dont know why an old boat needs more than a newish one ? wouldnt a very expensive boat have been maintained at any cost by its rich owners for at least the first 10-15 years ? .

david

David, all boats give problems. We've had 2 Ferrettis over 8yrs and on average, they've given me less problems than other boats I've had. All boats are a collection of components sourced from different manufacturers. Boat builders can choose the best component manufacturers they can find but in the end the service life of that component is dependent on the manufacturer who supplied it. For example I have a problem with my Besenzoni pasarelle at the moment. Now Besenzoni are a well respected supplier but my problem is related to the fact that Besenzoni originally fitted a mild steel hydraulic cylinder for one of the movements when they should have fitted a stainless steel one. I can't blame Ferretti for that.
All components have a limited service life and the problem with older boats is that there will be more components nearing the end of their service life than on newer boats, however well maintained those components are. You can try to anticipate failures by replacing those components which you think are going to fail soon or by carrying a lot of spares but in the end, older boats are never going to be as reliable as newer ones. Buying an older bigger boat could work out well for you but only providing you budget a significant maintenance cost every year (lets say £30k pa for example for a 20m boat, maybe a lot more if something really big fails) and you are willing to learn how the onboard systems work and have a go at fixing them yourself.
Yes the temp in Croatia has been very hot in the last few weeks. We've had warm southerly winds and the temps have been 35degC+ in the shade. Now the winds have turned to the north and the temps are more comfortable

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

You can see on the photo below it. You remove the junk, fold the sides inwards, then the whole thing hinges up. It's a bit Heath Robinson at the mo', but it does the job for now, and I'll try and improve it over the winter.

OK thanks

 

[squadron]

here is an update , the previous owner of the maiora bought it without a survey !!!, so no previous survey available , i cant belive someone would actually do that? , is it even worth going to see it ? have any of you guys ever bought a boat without a survey? (makes me think someone won it in a game of cards ) . dont know what to do now except walk away and forget about it , it would be ironc though if it was a really fine boat , just with some documents not available.

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

here is an update , the previous owner of the maiora bought it without a survey !!!, so no previous survey available , i cant belive someone would actually do that? , is it even worth going to see it ? have any of you guys ever bought a boat without a survey? (makes me think someone won it in a game of cards ) . dont know what to do now except walk away and forget about it , it would be ironc though if it was a really fine boat , just with some documents not available.

Hmmm, why's a previous survey so important? If you're serious about the boat you just need to commission your own survey. I know this isn't a great comparison, but when I sold my P42 the buyer didn't get a survey, he just paid for it and took it away. I think it's a question of materiality of the boat to the buyer.

Cheers
Jimmy

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

... and just rereading your post, the other thing to add is that I've never considered a previous survey as an important document when I've bought a boat, of the four boats I've bought secondhand, none had previous surveys, and it never occurred to me to ask for one. I just commissioned my own. Service history, on the other hand, is a really big deal to me.

Cheers
Jimmy

 

[Tranona]

here is an update , the previous owner of the maiora bought it without a survey !!!, so no previous survey available , i cant belive someone would actually do that? , is it even worth going to see it ? have any of you guys ever bought a boat without a survey? (makes me think someone won it in a game of cards ) . dont know what to do now except walk away and forget about it , it would be ironc though if it was a really fine boat , just with some documents not available.

All these issues are negative pointers. Lack of survey may mean the buyer was satisfied enough with what he saw to do without- or it could mean that there were underlying problems which he did not see and is now discovering, hence the sale.

As others have said, even if the boat is in good condition it is still going to require a big budget and time invested to do what you want to do. A welll documented history will help understand whether there are any nasties lurking and a good survey should identify if there are any major current issues to deal with.

Typical heart and head decision - you like the boat but can you deal with the challenge of running it?

 

[squadron]

... and just rereading your post, the other thing to add is that I've never considered a previous survey as an important document when I've bought a boat, of the four boats I've bought secondhand, none had previous surveys, and it never occurred to me to ask for one. I just commissioned my own. Service history, on the other hand, is a really big deal to me.

Cheers
Jimmy

hi jimmy , i asked for the service history , and the broker told me about some repairs and up grades over the last couple of years and thats it , broker just says come and see and do a survey , the broker is very helpfull and trys to get what little information is available to me , trouble is i dont know if this is normal or there is something really wrong with this boat , is there a way to find out service data from the engine manufacture ? he has sent me the engine seriel numbers ?

thanks
david

 

[Divemaster1]

My tuppence in here....

If you are keen, and not put off by warnings in here, then go have a look..., if you like what you see then;

1) Arrange a full survey by competent person (Structural, hull humidity, mechanical, electrical etc... this will list all equipment working and not ... which you will a) have owner set right or negotiate price reduction of).
2) Part of 1 above should include an engine survey and oil analysis (after running engines hard for at least 30 min). No point looking for service history on paper as engines may have been be knackered after service was done... if boat, engines and engine room looks well cared for, then it probably is / was .... a survey will tell you what you cannot see...

If 1 & 2 comes out shining, you will know a lot more and have a path forwards..., or know to run away...

 

[jfm]

here is an update , the previous owner of the maiora bought it without a survey !!!, so no previous survey available , i cant belive someone would actually do that? , is it even worth going to see it ? have any of you guys ever bought a boat without a survey? (makes me think someone won it in a game of cards ) . dont know what to do now except walk away and forget about it , it would be ironc though if it was a really fine boat , just with some documents not available.

You shouldn't be bothered about no survey. It doesn't matter. You'll be getting your own survey so there is no reason to care about the fact the current owner didn't have one. I recently sold my boat and the buyer didn't bother with a survey (it was newish, but also very expensive). This certainly isn't a walk away moment imho

 

[squadron]

My tuppence in here....

If you are keen, and not put off by warnings in here, then go have a look..., if you like what you see then;

1) Arrange a full survey by competent person (Structural, hull humidity, mechanical, electrical etc... this will list all equipment working and not ... which you will a) have owner set right or negotiate price reduction of).
2) Part of 1 above should include an engine survey and oil analysis (after running engines hard for at least 30 min). No point looking for service history on paper as engines may have been be knackered after service was done... if boat, engines and engine room looks well cared for, then it probably is / was .... a survey will tell you what you cannot see...

If 1 & 2 comes out shining, you will know a lot more and have a path forwards..., or know to run away...

i think i will go and have a look , i am in mallorca end sept anyway to do my icc training , the boat is somewhere near alicanti and the broker kindly offered to pick me up if i decide to view , the problem is even if i look i dont know what i am looking for . any pointers on the visual things you always look for when viewing ?

thanks
david

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

hi jimmy , i asked for the service history , and the broker told me about some repairs and up grades over the last couple of years and thats it , broker just says come and see and do a survey , the broker is very helpfull and trys to get what little information is available to me , trouble is i dont know if this is normal or there is something really wrong with this boat , is there a way to find out service data from the engine manufacture ? he has sent me the engine seriel numbers ?

thanks
david

Agree with jfm. I've bought quite a few used boats and I don't think I've ever asked for the previous survey or indeed what the broker thinks the previous owner spent on maintaining the boat. Whatever is said to you doesn't change the fact that you absolutely have to do a full hull and equipment survey and a full engines check by an authorised service agent. Yes any information you receive is interesting but nothing changes what you have to do. Yes if you have engine serial nos, phone a local service agent and ask him to look on the manufacturers central data records (if the manufacturer does this) for any info that is logged there but all you're likely to get is delivery dates and records of major warranty repairs early in the engines lives, if any. Frankly I doubt whether there are any computer records of engines as old as these but its worth asking

 

[squadron]

Agree with jfm. I've bought quite a few used boats and I don't think I've ever asked for the previous survey or indeed what the broker thinks the previous owner spent on maintaining the boat. Whatever is said to you doesn't change the fact that you absolutely have to do a full hull and equipment survey and a full engines check by an authorised service agent. Yes any information you receive is interesting but nothing changes what you have to do. Yes if you have engine serial nos, phone a local service agent and ask him to look on the manufacturers central data records (if the manufacturer does this) for any info that is logged there but all you're likely to get is delivery dates and records of major warranty repairs early in the engines lives, if any. Frankly I doubt whether there are any computer records of engines as old as these but its worth asking

yes that all makes sense , it just when you are preparing to look at several boats you have to pick the ones which seem to offer the best of everything , at the moment this boat offers nothing except that it looks stunning and has a huge ammount of living space , so i have to decide if looks alone make it worth visiting .

 

[BartW]

the OP isn't just talking older but also bigger, so intrinsically there's more to go wrong and it takes longer to fix, because there's more of everything by volume/quantity.

Exactly,
Think about such a big boat as a combination of:
A big 5 bedroom house with 5 bathrooms, and a pool, ;-) + 2 truck engines with hydraulics etc..+ Electric Energy generator and distribution, and a huge communication and navigation center.
So there will always be things to mend,

But nobody mentioned that these older Italian yachts have a real craftman’s finish inside,
Some details that you can’t find or are absolutely unaffordable in modern boats, (at least in my Canados) and make them so special.
they are very robust and reliable build, these are / were toy’s for very demanding customers, and can’t afford a holiday be interrupted for small issues, there will usually be a backup or another solution in any situation.

I wouldn’t worry about degradation after 8 nor 10 nor 15 years, if a survey prooves that the basic systems are ok.
Hull, engines + shafts + props, generators and seacocs are the important basics imho
All other items can easily (and affordably) be upgraded or replaced.

Yes indeed if you add up all individual components, parts and furniture of such a older vessel, buying prices are sometimes unbelieveably LOW
I don’t believe that prices of older big boats are low because of the big maintenance costs,
I think they are low as sellers can’t get rid of them because there are simply too many, while the running cost is so high.
Even if you don’t use her, you need a mooring (30k), insurance(4k), antifouling(5k), and some basic maintenance….(xk)


David, I think you should go and look to some of these boats, (not just one)
Visit boats from mates on here (you’re very welcome on BA), talk with them, asc what issues they had, so you get a feeling about owning a big boat, and make your mind up if this is the way you want to go.
I really wish you this lovely maioira, absolutely a stunning boat, but I would seriously want to know why the owner (sinds 2010 ?) wants to sell her already

don’t decide in a hurry, there are many nice boats around, I’m sure you have looked also at Versilcraft Falcon, San Lorenzo, Canados, ...

good luck with your search.

 

[Me_has_a_Boat]

Whilst I agree that no previous survey(s) is not a deal breaker, for me it is a flag of caution (the boat would not have been perfect - very useful to know what was wrong, and what was done to rectify as a good indicator of what sort of owner the Vendor has been). the Vendor not appearing to be very forthcoming on maintanence history is also another flag.

But could be simply that he does have enough money not to have to bother putting any effort into making a sale, as doesn't really care. or is just an idjut for not making life as easy as possible for someone to write a cheque for 6 figures.....even if he uses someone to do all that for him. But there be a lot of idjuts around. some with money. some without. Part of me is surprised that folks will buy a s/h boat of that scale without a survey. but part of me ain't . Buying from an idjut has plusses as well as minuses.....

...........so I wouldn't rule the boat out simply for those things (as said already, a good idea to get a surveyor involved. IMO essential - but perhaps influenced by the fact that I couldn't afford to get a purchase like that wrong!....not to say that I have that sort of money to spend on a boat .....even if I had somewhere to put her!).....and indeed, both those things might even be part of getting a good deal

As you do seem to like her I would go have a looksee - mostly just to get a feel for her (photos always look good), but no harm in peering into a few places and simply making hmmmming sounds .....I would especially have a looksee at the engines (and installation) for visual condition. Being able to eat dinner off usually a good sign of someone having put some constant TLC (£££) into them....engines that have come back from the dead never look the same as those that never got neglected in the first place. Being clean also means leaks, weeps and drips easy to spot.

and take a camera for lots of pics.

and as you have already said - the secret to selling well is.......buying well .

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

TBH anyone who buys a boat after myself will not have a survey report.
Why? Because I do tests myself, seen so many do it that I have learned where to look, and if something smells not good I usually back up, or ask some expert on the subject his opinion.
I usually do get compliments for my tests, and even sold boats when new owners told me that I told and showed stuff that needs updating or replacing with a better knowledge then to the surveyors that they paid 500 EUROS.

A two years ago survey would have not make such difference, if you want piece of mind and your understanding of boats is limited then get one, after you see it and like the boat.

 

[BartW]

looking at the details of the boat, I have two more questions;

its the 3 cabin (+crew) version, (this would be a deal breaker for me)
so there must be a big utility room or... ?
have you seen pictures from that ?

there is no (or only a very small) tender,
there seems to be a very small (mechanica?) crane, not very clear from the pics.
how much weight can this lift ?
is this upgradeable ?
Is it possible to find out if the FB can support a bigger crane, lets say 350kg?


oh yes, it was PYB who gave me the name of the Ital surveyor, confirmed by others, (pm send with info)
moreover, PYB was a dictionaire on detailed info on these older Italian lady's.
thanks again for that W.

 

[Me_has_a_Boat]

there is no (or only a very small) tender,
there seems to be a very small (mechanica?) crane, not very clear from the pics.
how much weight can this lift ?
is this upgradeable ?
Is it possible to find out if the FB can support a bigger crane, lets say 350kg?

Was wandering around the harbour recently (not "my" harbour!) and saw a very large motorboat with a large crane on the top deck...........this thread sprang to mind, and then the realisation that the crane alone probably costs more than my boat! (albeit I think the boat I was looking at was a tad smaller than OP's intended ).

 

[squadron]

looking at the details of the boat, I have two more questions;

its the 3 cabin (+crew) version, (this would be a deal breaker for me)
so there must be a big utility room or... ?
have you seen pictures from that ?

there is no (or only a very small) tender,
there seems to be a very small (mechanica?) crane, not very clear from the pics.
how much weight can this lift ?
is this upgradeable ?
Is it possible to find out if the FB can support a bigger crane, lets say 350kg?


oh yes, it was PYB who gave me the name of the Ital surveyor, confirmed by others, (pm send with info)
moreover, PYB was a dictionaire on detailed info on these older Italian lady's.
thanks again for that W.

hi bart , i will revist the spec and and see if the info is available , i dont have a layout for this boat ,i have only been able to find the four cabin layout version .

many thanks
david